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Author Topic:   the new and improved obama thread
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 61 of 237 (447140)
01-08-2008 8:49 AM
Reply to: Message 51 by Hyroglyphx
01-07-2008 8:21 PM


Obama on 'acting white'
The problem is with Hollywood perpetuating this ignorant notion that anything other than thug life bling-bling means you are an Uncle Tom.
Would it shock you to learn that Obama has addressed this sort of issue also?
quote:
Sen. Barack Obama (D-Ill.) is delivering pointed critiques of the African American community as he campaigns for its votes, lamenting that many of his generation are "disenfranchising" themselves because they don't vote, taking rappers to task for their language, and decrying "anti-intellectualism" in the black community, including black children telling peers who get good grades that they are "acting white."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by Hyroglyphx, posted 01-07-2008 8:21 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied

  
ramoss
Member (Idle past 612 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 08-11-2004


Message 62 of 237 (447149)
01-08-2008 9:44 AM
Reply to: Message 16 by Buzsaw
01-04-2008 10:04 PM


Re: Bashing Huckabee
Buzz,
Your comments are sounding very racist in this matter. Do you wish to give an actual reason for rejecting Osama, due to his actual statements , voting record , or an actual statement of his, rather than trying to contaminate him by alleged 'guilt by assocation', and comments about racial issues.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by Buzsaw, posted 01-04-2008 10:04 PM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 69 by Buzsaw, posted 01-10-2008 12:21 AM ramoss has not replied

  
macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3928 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 63 of 237 (447150)
01-08-2008 9:48 AM
Reply to: Message 59 by Modulous
01-08-2008 7:17 AM


Re: Race policies
I'm not sure that is how affirmative action works.
it's not.
i don't like affirmative action. any choice made by race is a bad choice. but. that's not how it works.
under affirmative action, if you have two potential employees (or students) of comparable experience and qualifications, you choose the one who is a member of a minority.
one of the biggest reasons i don't like it is that it seems to play favorites with minorities. take this. i think, i don't know, that people who practice this principle count multiple minorities, ie a black woman has 2 counts whereas a black man or a white woman only have 1 each. if we have 4 comparable candidates each of a differing ethnicity or gender, do we need to do a chart to figure out who is minority enough to qualify? and what if the white man who applied worked up from poverty but the black woman's father and grandfather and great grandfather were all doctors? it's a hard question, because you can't say just based on color what challenges a person faced, and racially based hiring practices are racist. but all the same, if you hire first on qualifications and second on personality or some other squishy topic, you might end up with an all-white office, and that's not good for anyone. but. there have been studies recently that demonstrate that companies with greater color and experience diversity are more profitable (as are those with women at the helm), so maybe in another generation, as all the old bastards die off, we won't be having this question anymore. of course, in europe, you're dealing with huge immigrant questions, so maybe those will be more interesting than ours in ten years.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 59 by Modulous, posted 01-08-2008 7:17 AM Modulous has not replied

  
macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3928 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 64 of 237 (447152)
01-08-2008 9:50 AM
Reply to: Message 60 by sinequanon
01-08-2008 8:35 AM


Re: Race policies
thank you.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 60 by sinequanon, posted 01-08-2008 8:35 AM sinequanon has not replied

  
obvious Child
Member (Idle past 4116 days)
Posts: 661
Joined: 08-17-2006


Message 65 of 237 (447295)
01-08-2008 7:10 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by DrJones*
01-05-2008 9:39 PM


Re: Bashing Huckabee
That's kind of frightening.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by DrJones*, posted 01-05-2008 9:39 PM DrJones* has not replied

  
macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3928 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 66 of 237 (447342)
01-08-2008 10:26 PM


new hampshire exit polls on cnn
Election Center 2008: Primary Exit Polls - Elections & Politics news from CNN.com
there's some interesting stuff on here. you'll have to click it because i'm WAY too lazy to code in fucking tables.

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 67 of 237 (447352)
01-08-2008 11:12 PM
Reply to: Message 46 by macaroniandcheese
01-07-2008 10:33 AM


Re: Race policies
my contention is that he has no policy plan for them, so why should they vote for him.
Why does he need a specific policy for blacks that differs from whites, or any other Americans? Why? Aren't we one nation? Aren't we all human beings?
i'm suggesting that people ought to be treated fairly. i'm not talking about handouts, i'm talking about equal opportunities.
Brenna, the law is in place already. Other than prosecuting people who fail to meet this basic criteria, what more would you like to see done? The next option is special compensation.
why don't you read my post and respond to me.
I've responded to several of your posts. Which post are you referring to?
why don't you spend an hour, just an hour, in a ghetto.
I just lived in the ghetto for 3 years! I finally got out. Maybe you should live in the ghetto. You sure wouldn't feel sorry for all the people there, because it would become instantly apparent that many of them have allowed themselves to languish there. Not all, certainly, but a very, very high percentage.
so just because people are naturally fearful and hateful this is an acceptable practice for our law enforcement officers?
Not only does EVERYONE profile, (including you: I don't have to personally know you, to know that), profiling is an integral part of detective work. Or did you think that serial killers are just unlucky people?
Now, that said: Racial profiling is garbage because its too subjective. That said, demeanor and appearance that extends beyond race, is a very important tool to establish reasonable suspicion. If you saw a gaggle of white kids with shaved heads, red suspenders, combat boots with white laces, wearing wife beaters, and adorned with swastika tattoos, chances are that the sensitivity training you underwent is gonna go right out the window -- and rightfully so.
Ever check a guy out at a bar, a department store, or a grocery store? Well, that's profiling. You are gathering little clues about him to see if he may be a good suitor. Is there something inherently fearful or hateful about that? I should hope not.
In order to provide aid to recently arrived Cuban immigrants, the United States Congress passed the Cuban Adjustment Act in 1966.
So this is the reason why Cubans are successful in South Florida?!?!? I'll let my brother-in-law know.

“First dentistry was painless, then bicycles were chainless, and carriages were horseless, and many laws enforceless. Next cookery was fireless, telegraphy was wireless, cigars were nicotineless, and coffee caffeineless. Soon oranges were seedless, the putting green was weedless, the college boy was hatless, the proper diet -- fatless. New motor roads are dustless, the latest steel is rustless, our tennis courts are sodless, our new religion -- Godless” -Arthur Guiterman

This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by macaroniandcheese, posted 01-07-2008 10:33 AM macaroniandcheese has replied

Replies to this message:
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macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3928 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 68 of 237 (447356)
01-08-2008 11:40 PM
Reply to: Message 67 by Hyroglyphx
01-08-2008 11:12 PM


Re: Race policies
Why does he need a specific policy for blacks that differs from whites, or any other Americans?
he doesn't. but he doesn't address the issues that are relevant to them, so why should they vote for him. you're missing the point. it's not about having a "BLACK ISSUES" page, it's about addressing the issues.
Brenna, the law is in place already. Other than prosecuting people who fail to meet this basic criteria, what more would you like to see done? The next option is special compensation.
no, the next option is not special compensation. the next option is fixing the issues in, for example, the funding of our education system. try remembering what's posted from one day to the next.
also, please use lowercase letters for my name. it's lowercase for a reason.
I've responded to several of your posts. Which post are you referring to?
you responded to someone else's post posted after mine about me a whole day before i prodded you to demand that you respond.
Maybe you should live in the ghetto. You sure wouldn't feel sorry for all the people there
yes, and if i actually lived in a country having a genocide, i'd see that the "victim" group deserved it. clearly, they're just asking to get killed. look. unlike you, i'm willing to accept that these are individuals. some don't have jobs because they can't get them. some don't have jobs because they don't trust employers. some don't have jobs because they'd rather sell drugs and "get rich fast". and some don't have jobs because they're lazy. but here's the thing. being "ghetto" doesn't preclude intellect or work ethic or competence or even having, keeping, and excelling at a job. i've hired and worked with "ghetto" people who couldn't keep their phones on and were late occasionally because they had to ride the bus and then walk 10 miles to get to work. i found them to be wonderful employees and phenomenal people and would hire any of them in an instant. why? because i didn't turn them down because of the clothes they wore or the slang they used. albeit, it wasn't an office job. but then if i ran an office, it would run more like that job.
because it would become instantly apparent that many of them have allowed themselves to languish there. Not all, certainly, but a very, very high percentage.
sources, please. i've demonstrated that they're not there by choice. so you demonstrate that they are. oh, right. your google doesn't work.
(including you: I don't have to personally know you, to know that)
please don't assume such things. i don't profile. i distrust everyone in person.
Or did you think that serial killers are just unlucky people?
they are. they have the same personality profiles as police officers. they as likely as not just had different environmental influences.
That said, demeanor and appearance that extends beyond race, is a very important tool to establish reasonable suspicion.
tell me what part of demeanor you can spot at 50 miles per hour on a black man in an expensive car?
If you saw a gaggle of white kids with shaved heads, red suspenders, combat boots with white laces, wearing wife beaters, and adorned with swastika tattoos
i'd suspect they were waiting around for a scene change at a theatre. have you met any white supremacists? they tend to wear jeans and t-shirts. just like everyone else.
Ever check a guy out at a bar, a department store, or a grocery store?
no. i don't tend to look at people. i tutored people in a college lab for 2 years and sometimes had no idea who i'd worked with beyond voice.
So this is the reason why Cubans are successful in South Florida?!?!? I'll let my brother-in-law know.
oh no! you know a cuban! omg my whole argument is shot!!!! sweetheart.
i lived in south florida for six fucking years. i'm well aware of the cuban society there. and, yes. there were professionals who came here and were given assistance to restart their lives. why? cultural warfare against communism. you've already had a response to this saying the exact same thing. they took advantage of the aid and became successful. then their children had a head start and continued to be successful. since then, not only is there the government aid for new refugees, but the established cuban community to provide aid.
if you think anyone helping you makes your accomplishments worthless, that's your own damn issue. considering that, i hope you taught yourself to read and do math and all that jazz since anyone helping you would undermine your accomplishments.
i, personally, did teach myself to read. i feel extra special now. thanks!
Edited by brennakimi, : No reason given.
Edited by brennakimi, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 67 by Hyroglyphx, posted 01-08-2008 11:12 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 69 of 237 (447590)
01-10-2008 12:21 AM
Reply to: Message 62 by ramoss
01-08-2008 9:44 AM


Obama's Leftist Agenda
ramoss writes:
Buzz,
Your comments are sounding very racist in this matter. Do you wish to give an actual reason for rejecting Osama, due to his actual statements , voting record , or an actual statement of his, rather than trying to contaminate him by alleged 'guilt by assocation', and comments about racial issues.
Obama's leftist socialist agenda is another reason I wouldn't vote for him. He also promises to empower unions, as his statement appears. Unions work to empower themselves by requiring union membership on everyone.
http://www.americanthinker.com/..._his_socialist_agenda.html

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 62 by ramoss, posted 01-08-2008 9:44 AM ramoss has not replied

  
molbiogirl
Member (Idle past 2642 days)
Posts: 1909
From: MO
Joined: 06-06-2007


Message 70 of 237 (447605)
01-10-2008 2:46 AM
Reply to: Message 67 by Hyroglyphx
01-08-2008 11:12 PM


Re: Race policies
I just lived in the ghetto for 3 years! I finally got out. Maybe you should live in the ghetto. You sure wouldn't feel sorry for all the people there, because it would become instantly apparent that many of them have allowed themselves to languish there. Not all, certainly, but a very, very high percentage.
I'm curious. What ghetto?
I lived in the ghetto for 12 years (Brooklyn, South Bronx). And my experiences there opened my heart.
You are a very judgmental person, Juggs.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 67 by Hyroglyphx, posted 01-08-2008 11:12 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 71 of 237 (448082)
01-11-2008 9:28 PM


Buzsaw's Supportive Data
Yet to be refuted data with link to my messages where they were posted: Before my antagonists post false charges that I don't substantiate my position they need to go back and read the original Obama thread. What difinitive data have they cited supportive of their positions?
Yet to be refuted documentation of Islam's violent nature and that Allah wants Muslims to fight for world conquest: (Obama's "kingdom on earth?? We don't know but we know he was indoctinated in Muslim school and that his mentor professing Christian pastor has connections with The Nation Of Islam.)
Mohammed writes in his Quran:
Q2.193: And fight with them until there is no persecution, and lreligion should be only for Allah, but if they desist, then there should be no hostility except against the oppressors.
Q5.51: O you who believe! do not take the Jews and the Christians for friends; they are friends of each other; and whoever amongst you takes them for a friend, then surely he is one of them; surely Allah does not guide the unjust people.
Q9.29: Fight those who do not believe in Allah, nor in the latter day, nor prohibit what Allah and His Apostle have prohibited, nor follow the religion of truth, out of those who have been given the Book (Bible), until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection.
Q8.12: When your Lord revealed to the angels: I am with you, therefore make firm those who believe. I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them.
Q8.13: This is because they acted adversely to Allah and His Apostle; and whoever acts adversely to Allah and His Apostle -- then surely Allah is severe in requiting (evil).
Q8.14: This -- taste it, and (know) that for the unbelievers is the chastisement of fire.
Q8.15: O you who believe! when you meet those who disbelieve marching for war, then turn not your backs to them.
Q8.16: And whoever shall turn his back to them on that day -- unless he turn aside for the sake of fighting or withdraws to a company -- then he, indeed, becomes deserving of Allah's wrath, and his abode is hell; and an evil destination shall it be.
(Embolding mine)
http://www.world-destiny.org/upteachofislam.htm
http://EvC Forum: Kingdom on Earth (Re: Barack Obama comments) -->EvC Forum: Kingdom on Earth (Re: Barack Obama comments)
Information about Obama, yet to be refuted: (note that the following data is mistaken in that according to Obama's quote below, Catholic school came first and Muslim school later when he was old enough to study algebra)
The opportunity in this is not accusing him of being a “closet Moslem.” It requires taking him at his word that he has become a Christian ” for that means he is an apostate. There is no dispute among either ancient or modern Moslem scholars that under Islamic law, a murtadd, “one who turns his back on Islam,” an apostate, must be put to death. Irtidad, apostasy, is committing treason against God, and traitors deserve to be killed.
Should Obama deny he ever was a Moslem, it will compound the problem in the eyes of Moslems. He was born of a Moslem father, raised by a Moslem stepfather, and received his first education at a Moslem school. That he subsequently went to a Catholic school in Jakarta before living with his mother’s parents back in Honolulu makes no difference. In the eyes of Moslems, he originally was a Moslem. How can he not be in those eyes, with a Koranic first name and his middle name that of the grandson of Mohammed? For him to become a Christian means he is, for them, a murtadd, an apostate.
Which provides the perfect opportunity for an enterprising journalist to ask him at a press conference if he is: 1. Afraid of Moslem assassination attempts as punishment for being in Islamic eyes an apostate? 2. Willing to publicly call upon all Moslems around the world to renounce such punishment and declare instead that Moslems are fully free to convert to another religion?
The odds are high that he will answer no to the first and yes to the second. As an oily politician, he will try to squirm out of a clear definitive yes with no wiggle room. But it should not be difficult for a smart journalist to get him to agree without reservation that Article 18 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, which states...
Everyone has the right to freedom of thought, conscience, and religion. This right includes freedom to change his religion or belief.
...applies to Muslims
Once Obama condemns the Moslem tradition of death for apostasy, then he can be asked:
The Koran famously quotes Allah as saying in chapter (sura) 2, verse 256 that there should be ”no compulsion in religion.' Yet numerous sayings of Mohammed known as hadith which form the basis of Islamic Sharia law quote Mohammed as saying ”If a Moslem discards his religion, kill him.' So are you telling Moslems that Allah was right but Mohammed was misquoted, and their Sharia law tradition on apostasy is wrong?
You can see how much fun there is to be had with this. Again, the key is taking Obama at his word that he is a Christian and not secretly a Moslem. No accusations necessary. The point is that Moslems view him as first a Moslem, not that he does. If done right with honest, straightforward, and persistent questioning Obama can serve as a quite useful anti-islamofascist tool.
Page not found – Brookes News
http://EvC Forum: Kingdom on Earth (Re: Barack Obama comments) -->EvC Forum: Kingdom on Earth (Re: Barack Obama comments)
In the book, Mr. Obama briefly addresses his education in Indonesia. "During the five years that we would live with my stepfather in Indonesia, I was sent first to a neighborhood Catholic school and then to a predominantly Muslim school; in both cases, my mother was less concerned with me learning the catechism or puzzling out the meaning of the muezzin's call to evening prayer than she was with whether I was properly learning my multiplication tables."
Access forbidden!
http://EvC Forum: Kingdom on Earth (Re: Barack Obama comments) -->EvC Forum: Kingdom on Earth (Re: Barack Obama comments)

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

Replies to this message:
 Message 72 by DrJones*, posted 01-11-2008 9:41 PM Buzsaw has replied
 Message 73 by jar, posted 01-11-2008 9:48 PM Buzsaw has replied
 Message 80 by macaroniandcheese, posted 01-12-2008 10:28 AM Buzsaw has not replied

  
DrJones*
Member
Posts: 2284
From: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 08-19-2004
Member Rating: 6.8


Message 72 of 237 (448085)
01-11-2008 9:41 PM
Reply to: Message 71 by Buzsaw
01-11-2008 9:28 PM


Re: Buzsaw's Supportive Data
We don't know but we know he was indoctinated in Muslim school
How do you know he was indoctrinated in a Muslim school?
eited to add: before you tell me to read the other thread, I have, and nowhere have you show that he was "indoctrinated" in a Muslim school. He was educated at a predominantly Muslim school for a few years, you have produced no evidence that he ever professed to follow Islam.
Edited by DrJones*, : No reason given.
Edited by DrJones*, : No reason given.

soon I discovered that this rock thing was true
Jerry Lee Lewis was the devil
Jesus was an architect previous to his career as a prophet
All of a sudden i found myself in love with the world
And so there was only one thing I could do
Was ding a ding dang my dang along ling long - Jesus Built my Hotrod Ministry

Live every week like it's Shark Week! - Tracey Jordan
Just a monkey in a long line of kings. - Matthew Good
If "elitist" just means "not the dumbest motherfucker in the room", I'll be an elitist! - Get Your War On
*not an actual doctor

This message is a reply to:
 Message 71 by Buzsaw, posted 01-11-2008 9:28 PM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 74 by Buzsaw, posted 01-11-2008 11:51 PM DrJones* has replied
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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 73 of 237 (448086)
01-11-2008 9:48 PM
Reply to: Message 71 by Buzsaw
01-11-2008 9:28 PM


Re: Buzsaw's Supportive Data ...NOT!
You really don't seem to be able to even tell what evidence is. For example, have you actually read the Qur'an? If so, you would realize that your source is simply quotemining, taking stuff out of context to fool the gullible just like your Biblical sources do.
Look at your first out of context quotemine:
Q2.193: And fight with them until there is no persecution, and lreligion should be only for Allah, but if they desist, then there should be no hostility except against the oppressors.
Actually, the passages from the Cow are only speaking of those who actively attack Muslims.
Qur'an writes:
[2.190] And fight in the way of Allah with those who fight with you, and do not exceed the limits, surely Allah does not love those who exceed the limits.
[2.191] And kill them wherever you find them, and drive them out from whence they drove you out, and persecution is severer than slaughter, and do not fight with them at the Sacred Mosque until they fight with you in it, but if they do fight you, then slay them; such is the recompense of the unbelievers.
[2.192] But if they desist, then surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
[2.193] And fight with them until there is no persecution, and religion should be only for Allah, but if they desist, then there should be no hostility except against the oppressors.
[2.194] The Sacred month for the sacred month and all sacred things are (under the law of) retaliation; whoever then acts aggressively against you, inflict injury on him according to the injury he has inflicted on you and be careful (of your duty) to Allah and know that Allah is with those who guard (against evil).
Fight with those who fight with you, and do not exceed the limits, surely Allah does not love those who exceed the limits.
The rest of your post is similar; misrepresentation, innuendo, smear and falsehoods.
That certainly is far less evil than many passages from the Bible.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 71 by Buzsaw, posted 01-11-2008 9:28 PM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 75 by Buzsaw, posted 01-12-2008 12:19 AM jar has replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 74 of 237 (448104)
01-11-2008 11:51 PM
Reply to: Message 72 by DrJones*
01-11-2008 9:41 PM


Re: Buzsaw's Supportive Data
DJ writes:
How do you know he was indoctrinated in a Muslim school?
Because it's a known fact that in Islamic schools that's part of the cirricula as well as the five prayers daily. Obama implies that in his book quote which I cited above.
.....my mother was less concerned with me learning the catechism or puzzling out the meaning of the muezzin's call to evening prayer than she was with whether I was properly learning my multiplication tables.
(Correction in my statement concerning learning algebra. It should have been multiplication.)
This implies that catechism and prayers were part of the cirricula. His mother doesn't say he didn't do the homework, but that she was less concerned about it than the religious. This does not mean that Obama was not indoctrinated and considered a practicing Muslim as was the case with all of the students, especially those fathered by a Muslim.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 72 by DrJones*, posted 01-11-2008 9:41 PM DrJones* has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 76 by DrJones*, posted 01-12-2008 12:22 AM Buzsaw has not replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 75 of 237 (448108)
01-12-2008 12:19 AM
Reply to: Message 73 by jar
01-11-2008 9:48 PM


Re: Buzsaw's Supportive Data
Jar writes:
You really don't seem to be able to even tell what evidence is. For example, have you actually read the Qur'an? If so, you would realize that your source is simply quotemining, taking stuff out of context to fool the gullible just like your Biblical sources do.
Look at your first out of context quotemine:
1. You're accusing me of doing what you've done for your spin. You've quote mined both me and the Quran rather than addreas the whole context to make my point. You mined out the one verse that helps you out of context, added quote mined verses from the Quran and avoided the rest of my context which solidifies my point.
Now you need to refute the rest of my accurately quoted verses most of which are not defensive in nature but obviously offensive calls for violent world conquest.
2. As I've stated repeatedly I have a copy of the Quran and have read significant parts of it. I also use it for reference.
3. The verses I've cited clarify the whole text including the ones you've cited. They show that if they submit and don't fight back then don't fight them. My verses show that submission is required by all inhabitants. Put it all in context and you find that my point is soundly substantiated.
Jar writes:
The rest of your post is similar; misrepresentation, innuendo, smear and falsehoods.
False! Have you no shame or regard for forum guidelines? The rest of my post includes quotes from the Quran which you purposefully avoided in order to obfuscate my point and demean my character.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 73 by jar, posted 01-11-2008 9:48 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 77 by DrJones*, posted 01-12-2008 12:23 AM Buzsaw has replied
 Message 79 by jar, posted 01-12-2008 9:47 AM Buzsaw has not replied

  
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