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Author Topic:   the new and improved obama thread
DrJones*
Member
Posts: 2284
From: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 08-19-2004
Member Rating: 6.8


Message 91 of 237 (448288)
01-12-2008 9:15 PM
Reply to: Message 90 by Buzsaw
01-12-2008 9:06 PM


Re: Buzsaw's Supportive Data
Nonsense.
How is it nonsense? The Holy Qur'an is not The Holy Qur'an if it's written in anything other than Arabic, all other are translations.

soon I discovered that this rock thing was true
Jerry Lee Lewis was the devil
Jesus was an architect previous to his career as a prophet
All of a sudden i found myself in love with the world
And so there was only one thing I could do
Was ding a ding dang my dang along ling long - Jesus Built my Hotrod Ministry

Live every week like it's Shark Week! - Tracey Jordan
Just a monkey in a long line of kings. - Matthew Good
If "elitist" just means "not the dumbest motherfucker in the room", I'll be an elitist! - Get Your War On
*not an actual doctor

This message is a reply to:
 Message 90 by Buzsaw, posted 01-12-2008 9:06 PM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 93 by Buzsaw, posted 01-12-2008 10:01 PM DrJones* has replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 92 of 237 (448295)
01-12-2008 9:58 PM
Reply to: Message 88 by obvious Child
01-12-2008 7:10 PM


OC writes:
Did Obama ever utter that key phrase? If it can be proven he never did, then Buz is completely without an argument.
Likely being in Muslim catecism class twice a week for 2 years he did. Consider the following link which appears to make the case that he says what he needs to say to become president.
Was Obama Ever a Muslim?
“I’ve always been a Christian,” said Obama, focusing on his own personal lack of practice of Islam as a child to deny any connection to Islam. But Muslims do not see practice as key. For them, that he was born to a line of Muslim males makes him born a Muslim. Further, all children born with an Arabic name based on the H-S-N trilateral root (Hussein, Hassan, and others) can be assumed to be Muslim, so they will understand Obama’s full name, Barack Hussein Obama, to proclaim him a born Muslim.
Further, family and friends considered him as a child to be Muslim. In “Obama Debunks Claim About Islamic School,” Nedra Pickler of the Associated Press wrote on January 24, 2007, that
Obama’s mother, divorced from Obama’s father, married a man from Indonesia named Lolo Soetoro, and the family relocated to the country from 1967-71. At first, Obama attended the Catholic school, Fransiskus Assisis, where documents showed he enrolled as a Muslim, the religion of his stepfather. The document required that each student choose one of five state-sanctioned religions when registering - Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist, Catholic or Protestant.
Asked about this, Obama communications director Robert Gibbs responded by indicating to Pickler that
he wasn’t sure why the document had Obama listed as a Muslim. “Senator Obama has never been a Muslim.”
Two months later, Paul Watson of the Los Angeles Times (available online in a Baltimore Sun reprint) reported that the Obama campaign had retreated from that absolute statement and instead issued a more nuanced one: “Obama has never been a practicing Muslim.” The Times looked into the matter further and learned more about his Indonesian interlude:
His former Roman Catholic and Muslim teachers, along with two people who were identified by Obama’s grade-school teacher as childhood friends, say Obama was registered by his family as a Muslim at both schools he attended. That registration meant that during the third and fourth grades, Obama learned about Islam for two hours each week in religion class.
The childhood friends say Obama sometimes went to Friday prayers at the local mosque. “We prayed but not really seriously, just following actions done by older people in the mosque,” Zulfin Adi said. “But as kids, we loved to meet our friends and went to the mosque together and played.” . Obama’s younger sister, Maya Soetoro, said in a statement released by the campaign that the family attended the mosque only “for big communal events,” not every Friday.
Recalling Obama’s time in Indonesia, the Times account contains quotes that Obama “went to the mosque,” and that he “was Muslim.”
Summarized, available evidence suggests Obama was born a Muslim to a non-practicing Muslim father and for some years had a reasonably Muslim upbringing under the auspices of his Indonesian step-father. At some point, he converted to Christianity. It appears false to state, as Obama does, “I’ve always been a Christian” and “I’ve never practiced Islam.” llThe campaign appears to be either ignorant or fabricating when it states that “Obama never prayed in a mosque
Inside Every Progressive Is A Totalitarian Screaming To Get Out - David Horowitz
(Embolding mine for emphasis)
Another example of political impropriety by Obama is as follows relative to his pastor:
"If Barack gets past the primary, he might have to publicly distance himself from me," Wright told The New York Times with a shrug. "I said it to Barack personally, and he said 'yeah, that might have to happen.'"
http://archive.newsmax.com/...articles/2007/8/8/194812.shtml

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 88 by obvious Child, posted 01-12-2008 7:10 PM obvious Child has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 98 by obvious Child, posted 01-13-2008 2:18 AM Buzsaw has not replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 93 of 237 (448296)
01-12-2008 10:01 PM
Reply to: Message 91 by DrJones*
01-12-2008 9:15 PM


Re: Buzsaw's Supportive Data
1. The same could be said about the Bible in that vein.
2. Totally irrevelant. Your job relative to this thread is to show that the original doesn't state the essentials that the translations we have if you wish to contest the accuracy of the translations.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 91 by DrJones*, posted 01-12-2008 9:15 PM DrJones* has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 94 by DrJones*, posted 01-12-2008 10:17 PM Buzsaw has not replied
 Message 99 by obvious Child, posted 01-13-2008 2:20 AM Buzsaw has replied

  
DrJones*
Member
Posts: 2284
From: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 08-19-2004
Member Rating: 6.8


Message 94 of 237 (448300)
01-12-2008 10:17 PM
Reply to: Message 93 by Buzsaw
01-12-2008 10:01 PM


Re: Buzsaw's Supportive Data
1. The same could be said about the Bible in that vein.
Yeah it could be, but you christians just aren't as dilligent at keeping your holy books pure, so any translation of the bible is as good as the original to you.
we have if you wish to contest the accuracy of the translations.
I not contesting the accuracy of the translations, I'm contesting your claim that you've read the Holy Qur'an.
Edited by DrJones*, : No reason given.

soon I discovered that this rock thing was true
Jerry Lee Lewis was the devil
Jesus was an architect previous to his career as a prophet
All of a sudden i found myself in love with the world
And so there was only one thing I could do
Was ding a ding dang my dang along ling long - Jesus Built my Hotrod Ministry

Live every week like it's Shark Week! - Tracey Jordan
Just a monkey in a long line of kings. - Matthew Good
If "elitist" just means "not the dumbest motherfucker in the room", I'll be an elitist! - Get Your War On
*not an actual doctor

This message is a reply to:
 Message 93 by Buzsaw, posted 01-12-2008 10:01 PM Buzsaw has not replied

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 95 of 237 (448330)
01-13-2008 12:00 AM
Reply to: Message 57 by molbiogirl
01-08-2008 2:21 AM


Re: Bashing Huckabee
What does Kwanza have to do with the price of tea in China?
I mentioned Kwanza because it is an illustration of attempting to authenticate something as being genuinely African in culture when in fact it has nothing to do with anything African.
Yes. Juggs. Let's see some stats. (PREDICTION: you run from this request for documentation like you have from all the others.)
Some stats on what? You never asked what it is that you want some statistics for.
quote:
Indians, living in abject squalor, statistically fair better than the richest of little suburbanite white kids. Why? Because their culture has not been corrupted by the slothful, indifferent American attitude that now pervades the country.
Juggs, let's see some cites. Enough already. We've had it about up to here with your bare assertions.
Sure. In every single bracket, African Americans score lower than every one of their peers. See, one might be able to chalk this up to how one race is more disadvantaged than others. The problem is, every school in America is integrated, which means all people's of all colors are attending the same schools. So there is no bias to rely on. It obviously culturally induced rather The Man out to get people of another color.
The trends very plainly speak for themselves.
Maryland/DC, Grades 4-8 reveal that Asian and caucasian students routinely score higher, The same in mathematics.
Over and over again we see that some minorities do well, whereas others do not do well. There are only two serious options from which to deduce the reality of the situation. Either Asian and Caucasian people are inherently more intelligent than other races, or certain cultural pressures make for a lackadaisacal attitude towards education.
The easiest way to determine whether it is genetically caused is to look at the aggregates of the same race and juxtapose those statistics by different locations.
If it can be demonstrated that, say, that Jamaicans living in squalor statistically do better than, say, African Americans, then there is the surest way to know that race literally bears no relevance to a persons intelligence.
So, what then are some extenuating circumstances? Some people say that poverty will effect it. And while that is certainly a consideration, it does nothing to explain why impoverished nations routinely score vastly higher than Americans or certain Europeans.
It will become instantly apparent that race and/or poverty have no direct correlation to how well the population will do scholastically, but rather, is evidence of how culture often dictates how people will act and perform within any given society.
And lets face it, we all know its true.
The same could be said of juxtaposing white Americans next to white Europeans. They are basically genetically identical because the white Americans originate from Europe. Yet, Europeans almost always score higher than Americans. Therefore, it seems blindingly obvious that it has everything to do with culture, and nothing to do with race.
quote:
What I notice is that people in that business want a person who is reliable, who isn't so ghetto that they devalue the entire block.
Aw, yeah. That's what I want to hear. Unvarnished racism, in the wild, as it were.
How is that racist when I mentioned nothing about race? I am talking about ghetto behavior, you know, crass, course, bragadocious, ill-tempered behavior that is prevalent in urban communities? The surest way to know that what I'm saying is true is to note that one of the most coveted dreams of inhabitants of the ghetto, is to get out of the ghetto.
I don't see how it is possible in this day and age for an average realtor to disallow someone like Barack Obama to live in an upper-class neighborhood, but allow a thug personified, like, say, Eminem, to live there solely on the basis that one is white and the other black, rather than, one is ghetto and the other can conduct themselves in a civilized manner.
Juggs, let's hear some more about "those people". What are their undesirable traits again? You know. Ghetto traits?
A higher propensity for violence, crime, drug addiction, low educational standards, poor manners, etc, etc.
(PREDICTION: Juggs will never answer this question.)
Well, you know MBG, if you want to address me to respond to something, you should respond to me. You wrote this post to brenna, not to me, yet you are speaking as if you were talking to me rather than to her. I almost didn't see this post, which surely would have made your prognostications come true. But then, that was probably your intent.

“First dentistry was painless, then bicycles were chainless, and carriages were horseless, and many laws enforceless. Next cookery was fireless, telegraphy was wireless, cigars were nicotineless, and coffee caffeineless. Soon oranges were seedless, the putting green was weedless, the college boy was hatless, the proper diet -- fatless. New motor roads are dustless, the latest steel is rustless, our tennis courts are sodless, our new religion -- Godless” -Arthur Guiterman

This message is a reply to:
 Message 57 by molbiogirl, posted 01-08-2008 2:21 AM molbiogirl has not replied

  
macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3927 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 96 of 237 (448337)
01-13-2008 12:27 AM
Reply to: Message 87 by DrJones*
01-12-2008 5:00 PM


2. He has Muslim first and middle names
no, i believe they are arabic names. don't conflate the two, you'll just confuse people.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 87 by DrJones*, posted 01-12-2008 5:00 PM DrJones* has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 97 by DrJones*, posted 01-13-2008 12:45 AM macaroniandcheese has replied
 Message 100 by Buzsaw, posted 01-13-2008 11:11 AM macaroniandcheese has replied

  
DrJones*
Member
Posts: 2284
From: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 08-19-2004
Member Rating: 6.8


Message 97 of 237 (448341)
01-13-2008 12:45 AM
Reply to: Message 96 by macaroniandcheese
01-13-2008 12:27 AM


no, i believe they are arabic names
I'm just repeating Buz's claims, I do know the difference between Muslim and Arabic.

soon I discovered that this rock thing was true
Jerry Lee Lewis was the devil
Jesus was an architect previous to his career as a prophet
All of a sudden i found myself in love with the world
And so there was only one thing I could do
Was ding a ding dang my dang along ling long - Jesus Built my Hotrod Ministry

Live every week like it's Shark Week! - Tracey Jordan
Just a monkey in a long line of kings. - Matthew Good
If "elitist" just means "not the dumbest motherfucker in the room", I'll be an elitist! - Get Your War On
*not an actual doctor

This message is a reply to:
 Message 96 by macaroniandcheese, posted 01-13-2008 12:27 AM macaroniandcheese has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 102 by macaroniandcheese, posted 01-13-2008 1:01 PM DrJones* has not replied

  
obvious Child
Member (Idle past 4115 days)
Posts: 661
Joined: 08-17-2006


Message 98 of 237 (448348)
01-13-2008 2:18 AM
Reply to: Message 92 by Buzsaw
01-12-2008 9:58 PM


That's the best you can do?
He went to a Muslims school and learned about Islam?
Under that logic, everyone who went to a Christian school is automatically an Christian.
And your article is quite amusing:
quote:
But as kids, we loved to meet our friends and went to the mosque together and played.
There's a serious threat there eh Buz? [Sarcasm Off] Kids going to a religious place to play with each other! Heaven forbid that. I guess everyone who goes to play at a church run after school care program automatically accepts whatever beliefs that Church has according to your logic.
quote:
Likely being in Muslim catecism class twice a week for 2 years he did.
You seem to lack an understanding of what it takes to become a Muslim. Did he or did he not say the key phrase?
That's all I'm asking.
Personally, I have a hard time accepting your argument for a key reason. I went to a non denominational Christian school, I'm not a Christian. Your logic seems to state that if one goes to such a religious school they are automatically of that religion and forever will be.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 92 by Buzsaw, posted 01-12-2008 9:58 PM Buzsaw has not replied

  
obvious Child
Member (Idle past 4115 days)
Posts: 661
Joined: 08-17-2006


Message 99 of 237 (448349)
01-13-2008 2:20 AM
Reply to: Message 93 by Buzsaw
01-12-2008 10:01 PM


Re: Buzsaw's Supportive Data
quote:
1. The same could be said about the Bible in that vein.
2. Totally irrevelant. Your job relative to this thread is to show that the original doesn't state the essentials that the translations we have if you wish to contest the accuracy of the translations.
For all your islamaphobia, you could have at least researched it. For one, it is considered not the Koran if not read in Arabic, but a perversion of it. Second, Muslims' place in Heaven is dictated by how many verses in Arabic they memorize. You may think that Arabic isn't relevant here, but you'd be quite wrong.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 93 by Buzsaw, posted 01-12-2008 10:01 PM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 101 by Buzsaw, posted 01-13-2008 11:34 AM obvious Child has replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 100 of 237 (448416)
01-13-2008 11:11 AM
Reply to: Message 96 by macaroniandcheese
01-13-2008 12:27 AM


brennakimi writes:
no, i believe they are arabic names. don't conflate the two, you'll just confuse people.
The name claim was not my personal allegation. The website that I cited had the following statement which I can neither deny or verify for what it's worth relative to this discussion:
all children born with an Arabic name based on the H-S-N trilateral root (Hussein, Hassan, and others) can be assumed to be Muslim, so they will understand Obama’s full name, Barack Hussein Obama, to proclaim him a born Muslim.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 96 by macaroniandcheese, posted 01-13-2008 12:27 AM macaroniandcheese has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 103 by macaroniandcheese, posted 01-13-2008 1:04 PM Buzsaw has replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 101 of 237 (448420)
01-13-2008 11:34 AM
Reply to: Message 99 by obvious Child
01-13-2008 2:20 AM


Re: Buzsaw's Supportive Data
OC writes:
For all your islamaphobia, you could have at least researched it. For one, it is considered not the Koran if not read in Arabic, but a perversion of it. Second, Muslims' place in Heaven is dictated by how many verses in Arabic they memorize. You may think that Arabic isn't relevant here, but you'd be quite wrong.
It behooves the one contesting the translation to research and support their implication that the translation of the Quran is inaccurate relative to this debate. Stop obfuscating the debate!
You people are wasting time and bandwidth, debating on foolish semantics pertaining to translations which are appropriately applied world wide in such discussions and debate. Your arguments are strawmen.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 99 by obvious Child, posted 01-13-2008 2:20 AM obvious Child has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 104 by obvious Child, posted 01-13-2008 3:37 PM Buzsaw has replied

  
macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3927 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 102 of 237 (448429)
01-13-2008 1:01 PM
Reply to: Message 97 by DrJones*
01-13-2008 12:45 AM


i figured. just making sure, though

This message is a reply to:
 Message 97 by DrJones*, posted 01-13-2008 12:45 AM DrJones* has not replied

  
macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3927 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 103 of 237 (448430)
01-13-2008 1:04 PM
Reply to: Message 100 by Buzsaw
01-13-2008 11:11 AM


oh, so just because you cited this, you're not responsible for this claim? how convenient. take responsibility for your innuendo.
if your parents named you hassan, would you be happy "stuck" as a muslim? what if our parents named you something pagan? does that mean you can't believe what you want? is that like selling your firstborn to the devil?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 100 by Buzsaw, posted 01-13-2008 11:11 AM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 108 by Buzsaw, posted 01-13-2008 7:01 PM macaroniandcheese has replied

  
obvious Child
Member (Idle past 4115 days)
Posts: 661
Joined: 08-17-2006


Message 104 of 237 (448440)
01-13-2008 3:37 PM
Reply to: Message 101 by Buzsaw
01-13-2008 11:34 AM


Re: Buzsaw's Supportive Data
quote:
It behooves the one contesting the translation to research and support their implication that the translation of the Quran is inaccurate relative to this debate. Stop obfuscating the debate!
No, if you understood Islam, reading the Koran in any language other then Arabic is perverting it.
Do you know anything about Islam?
How can you attack Obama as being an Muslim when you don't even understand some of the most basic things about Islam?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 101 by Buzsaw, posted 01-13-2008 11:34 AM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 105 by Buzsaw, posted 01-13-2008 6:37 PM obvious Child has replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 105 of 237 (448472)
01-13-2008 6:37 PM
Reply to: Message 104 by obvious Child
01-13-2008 3:37 PM


Re: Buzsaw's Supportive Data
OC writes:
Do you know anything about Islam?
How can you attack Obama as being an Muslim when you don't even understand some of the most basic things about Islam?
1. I understand Islam and the Quran enough to know that the fundamentals of the translations are basically correct. They have been translated by professional linguists who know Arabic. It's up to you to prove otherwise with the specifics of how the original has a different message than the translations which I have cited.
2. For the umpteenth time, I haven't attacked Obama as being a Muslim. My position has been that I don't know but have questions. I have shown where he was regarded as a Muslim as a youth and registered in schools as a Muslim, etc. I have raised the question as to whether he may be a secret Muslim masquerading as a Christian in order to infiltrate the US Government and undermine the war on terror, support of Israel etc.
I have shown as well how closely he has chosen to be closely associated with a radical black racist Christian church who's pastor espouses racist black power and antisemitic agendas and who has connections with racist Nation of Islam's leaders.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 104 by obvious Child, posted 01-13-2008 3:37 PM obvious Child has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 106 by jar, posted 01-13-2008 6:41 PM Buzsaw has not replied
 Message 107 by obvious Child, posted 01-13-2008 6:54 PM Buzsaw has not replied

  
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