That whole jesus thing is a load of tosh

I'll take a crack at this.The story is generally misunderstood; a situation not uncommon among superstitious people, and some of New Testament writers were more superstitious than others.In Hebrew and in Latin, the word virgin may be understood simply as a young woman. And as to why Joseph married her anyway, well, it seems he expected the kid to accomplish great things. Many men, throughout history have accepted a pregnant bride, even though she was carrying someone else's baby."That's the story of, that's the glory of love."

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Hebrew has a word "bethulah" which usually does mean "virgin".

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Indeed. It is a legal term which is defined in at least three places: "never been laid."Some biblical authors seem to use it as a term of respect on occasion. This seems appropriate. If one knows nothing of a woman's sexual history, he might just as well assume that she is honorable."Virgin Birth" in the sense of sexless reproduction goes way back in pagan religion, probably to a time before people understood the connection between sex and reproduction. That Matthew makes a big deal of it may be because he read Isaiah from the Septuagint and the Greek parthenos (virgin) may be taken either way. John, on the other hand, could read Isaiah in the Hebrew, and he makes no mention at all of the "virgin" birth.In Latin, (and in English), virgin may be taken either way. In fact, some Latin texts use it in the sense of: "young married woman." Some New Testament writer use parthenos in the sense of "girl" or "daughter."There is no compelling reason to accept the superstitious opinion of a few disciples, especially when you weigh it against the evidence they cite in support of their claim (Isaiah 7:14). If one reads the verse in context (several chapters worth) it becomes clear that the prediction wasn't about the virgin or the child. It was about the king of Assyria and how soon he would come to kick butt. "by the time the child knows right from wrong" "6 or 5 years" (Jerusalem Bible).The doctrine is just one more example of shameless charlatans leading ignorant dupes, through partial truth, based on poor scholarship.db------------------
B.A. Biology&Religion - Loma Linda University
Anatomy and Physiology - LLU School of Medicine
Embryology - La Sierra University
Biblical languages - Pacific Union College
Bible doctrines - Walla Walla College[This message has been edited by doctrbill, 07-02-2003]

Hi Schraff,Long time no see.
I'm great!
Well, good.
OK ... I've been worse.How about you? Glad to see you are still in here banging heads together.
Feels like homecoming. db

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it seems likely that the story was fairly well established in the Christian community at the time of writing

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I'd believe that. The story sold well in Egypt too, where the holy family (Mary, Joseph, and Jesus) reminded them of the holy family (Isis, Osiris, and Horus).

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Could the 'virgin birth' story have been a deliberate
attempt to win over Roman support for christianity?

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Perhaps, but the majority of people were probably as superstitious then as they are now. If the Romans were attracted it may have been because they were bored with their old religion; looking for something fresh. At least that's often how it goes nowadays.

IMO the whole virgin birth thing was imagined by a few apostles who figured it was a cool idea and couldn't read the scriptures well enough to realize that the prophecy [Isaiah 7] had nothing to do with "virgin birth" and everything to do with Assyrian invasion.As for Joseph thinking to "put her away," wouldn't you if she were pregnant by someone other than yourself? (assuming, of course, that you are male).About the stoning ... Jews were not allowed to do that under Roman occupation. How many Jewish girls were waddling around Palestine carrying a "gift from God" via Roman soldiers, whether by consent or not?Besides, saying you got pregnant by the "Holy Spirit" is like saying you got pregnant under the influence.Remember Lot's daughters?db

That's an interesting sermonette, but the topic is "virgin birth." Have you anything to say on that?

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newborn msg. #26: in my last reply i include the "virgin birth" prophecy.

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I don't think so.

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newborn msg. #24: Most of the prophecies in the Old Testament made you think that it talks about nation restauration (and that was what Israel thought on that time).
They thought that the Messias would be a warrior of some sort who will be sent to free them from the other nations ocupation.
But the prophecies are talking about the overall salvation plan of God .It talks about Jesus coming to the world,executing Gods SPIRITUAL salvation plan and about the salvation of the gentiles.
Paul says Israel didnt recognize Jesus and only after the salvation of the gentiles Israel will be safe(spiritualy)
Then the scriptures are talking about spiritual salvation in a figurative way
Remember Jesus appeared to Paul.
Remember also the apostles did miracles and expelled demons in the name of Jesus.

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Where, in this sermonette, have you addressed the issue of "virgin birth"?
Have you actually read teh seventh chapter of the book of Isaiah? Wouldn't this be a good time to do so?db------------------
"If God created Nature, then the Law of Nature is the Law of God."

I am beginning to wonder if you are incorrigible, although I must say, in your favor, that this last post was clear, concise and much more readable than previous ones.Thank you for that.

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That is exactly what i said.

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Of course it is exactly what you said. I was quoting you!!

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One can interpret Isaiah 7 in terms of national issues but the virgin thing is like a hidden futuristic message ...

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And your reason for believing this is ... ?

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... did some of the Israelites enemies born from a virgin? I doubt.

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There were many who were said to have been born of a virgin. I'm sure there are others in here with that info. at their fingertips.

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You have to do research in these cultures and show it to me.

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Would it kill you to do the research yourself?Besides, it is a moot point. The wording of Isaiah 7:14 makes it clear that he is not discussing a woman who'd never had sex. The Hebrews had a special word for that and Isaiah did not use that word. But the Greeks did not have a special word to indicate the sexual experience of a woman, so their word parthenos may be understood either way. Thus the confusion among those who could not read Isaiah in Hebrew. Matthew and Luke were among them.db------------------
Have you graduated from Sunday School?