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Author Topic:   scientific theories taught as factual
Modulous
Member (Idle past 181 days)
Posts: 7789
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 286 of 295 (448598)
01-14-2008 7:46 AM
Reply to: Message 285 by Percy
01-14-2008 7:11 AM


Re: pedantic interjection
Yeah, this pretty much nails what I was trying to say. Too much time and effort is wasted on the evolutionist claim that it is a fact that evolution has occurred. If evolutionists are involved in any bait-and-switch tactics, this is it. While it wouldn't quite be correct to say that calling evolution a fact is wrong, it certainly is misleading to attempt to give the impression that evolution is the same type of fact as the height of your desk.

To be fair, nobody is suggesting that the statement 'life on earth has changed significantly over a long time' is an obvious fact. It's still a fact nevertheless. The distance to Andromeda is a fact, but it is far from obvious.

Acceleration due to gravity seems like an obvious fact, but it took thousands of years of civilization before anyone even described it!

I'm sure there are plenty of historical facts which are on much less certain ground than the fact that hominids have gone through significant changes over the past 5 million years.

Evolution is a fact, the amount of evidence that indicates life on earth has changed over time is immense...there is more evidence of that fact than there is evidence of the height of nwr's desk. Certain parts of natural history may be disputable, but the overall pattern of natural history is rock solid fact. Explaining it, now that's the hard part :)

quote:
Aside to Modulous: I own a 25 year-old copy of Hen's Teeth and Horse's Toes.

Nice: I often wonder what happen to Gould's clear style (even if you disagree with him it was quite easy to follow him) when he wrote Structure of Evolutionary Theory which I have around here somewhere.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 285 by Percy, posted 01-14-2008 7:11 AM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 288 by Percy, posted 01-14-2008 7:51 AM Modulous has not yet responded

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 18309
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 287 of 295 (448599)
01-14-2008 7:47 AM
Reply to: Message 281 by ICANT
01-14-2008 12:01 AM


Re: Sudden Appearances
ICANT writes:

But that's not true. For example, in your previous post you mentioned insufficient fossils as a problem with evolution.

Would you please point out in Message 272 where I say insufficient fossils is a problem with evolution.

First, I was replying to your Message 272, so your previous post would be Message 265.

Second, have you dropped the level of discourse to the point where you're now denying things you've clearly said? Only 15 messages to go in this thread, ICANT, you're wasting them! :(

Third, here's you in your Message 265 where you mention the problem of insufficient fossils:

ICANT in Message 265 writes:

Now the creationist in me says where are the fossils of the population when they were at the half way point 5000 generations.

As I said Percy I need help here.

Lets say that several million was 10 million.
Over 10000 generations thats at least 50 billion + boddies along the way.

This is why creationist are always crying where are the fossils.

Of course, we both know you have a problem with the fossil record, because you admit it in your very next paragraph:

ICANT writes:

But yes I do have a problem with insufficient fossils...

Thank you for making me waste my time quoting precisely where you had already said this.

Percy would you like to know without a doubt that evolution has occured as many here believe it has and you could prove it with a fossil record that could not be questioned as to the facts?

There is nothing that can't be questioned in science. There is nothing that can be proven in science. There is nothing that can be known without a doubt in science. Science is tentative.

Science can only provide levels of confidence in what we think we know through a process of experiment, observation, analysis, replication and prediction validation. We're pretty certain about the theory of evolution, and about our belief that evolution has produced the diversity of life observed both in the fossil record and currently living on this planet, but that certainty never reaches 100%. There's tons of evidence supporting these conclusions.

Your problem is that you're rejecting all evidence that doesn't prove evolution. If you keep looking for the evidence that proves evolution then you'll never find any evidence at all, because no such evidence exists. No evidence proving any scientific theory exists, because scientific theories aren't proven.

Scientists use words like "prove" and "proof" all the time, but they're just using it as shorthand for "supported by sufficient evidence." They don't mean to imply certainty beyond doubt, which is what you seem to be looking for. That degree of certainty doesn't exist within science.

I've explained this so many times now that I have to ask, if you play chess, does your opponent have to explain castling and how the knight moves before every game, or do you learn and incorporate what you learn into your thinking? I assume the answer is yes. How about doing the same thing here?

I will say since God made everything out of the same material we would be very similiar. Now we are back to square 1. You should be more concerened about the lack of fossils than I am because without them you will never be able to convince creo's.

You can't find what isn't there. You are never going to find the fossilized skeleton of any creature whose remains were eaten, scavenged, scattered, then completely decayed to dust and detritus, which is the fate of probably at least 99.9999% of all creatures that have ever lived.

I did say inMessage 272
quote:
I do have a problem when people say it is a proven fact that I evolved from a lower life form.

So do I, as I explained already when I mentioned Gould.

I said I hear so much about evidence but I can't find it.
I was pointed to a lot of written material and a few pictures.

Like I said before, if you can't find the evidence it's because you're looking for evidence that proves evolution true. No such evidence exists.

As others keep suggesting, you sound like you just want to ignore the evidence while complaining about exaggerated claims. You're like a guy surrounded by trees saying, "Where's the forest?"

If you're sincere in wanting evidence and would like to give examining that evidence another try then the greatest wealth of evidence presented for evolution is probably in the original book on the subject, Darwin's Origins. It's very readable, and though dry, if it's evidence you're looking for then there isn't a better place. You can find it in any library and most bookstores, and nearby it you'll find a wealth of more contemporary books that also present a lot of evidence.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 281 by ICANT, posted 01-14-2008 12:01 AM ICANT has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 295 by nator, posted 01-14-2008 5:27 PM Percy has not yet responded

    
Percy
Member
Posts: 18309
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 288 of 295 (448601)
01-14-2008 7:51 AM
Reply to: Message 286 by Modulous
01-14-2008 7:46 AM


Re: pedantic interjection
I don't think I'd have any objection if evolutionists modified the Gould argument to claim that evolution is a non-obvious fact.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 286 by Modulous, posted 01-14-2008 7:46 AM Modulous has not yet responded

    
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 16085
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 10.0


Message 289 of 295 (448610)
01-14-2008 9:18 AM
Reply to: Message 285 by Percy
01-14-2008 7:11 AM


Yeah, this pretty much nails what I was trying to say. Too much time and effort is wasted on the evolutionist claim that it is a fact that evolution has occurred. If evolutionists are involved in any bait-and-switch tactics, this is it. While it wouldn't quite be correct to say that calling evolution a fact is wrong, it certainly is misleading to attempt to give the impression that evolution is the same type of fact as the height of your desk.

Please explain further.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 285 by Percy, posted 01-14-2008 7:11 AM Percy has not yet responded

  
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 16085
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 10.0


Message 290 of 295 (448611)
01-14-2008 9:27 AM
Reply to: Message 280 by nwr
01-13-2008 11:50 PM


Re: pedantic interjection
There is no doubt that the rulers measure the correct length, if used properly.

Typical evolutionist. You admit that you have "no doubt". You have made your mind up already about how tall your desk is.

You admit, in other words, that your theory is unfalsifiable, a dogma about which there can be "no doubt".

This means that rulerarianism is not scientific, it is a religion.

That there is no doubt is established by the adoption of conventions. If you like, it is established by executive fiat. But it is established nonetheless. The meaning of our length words derives from those same conventions ... Not really a big deal, since one inch = 2.54 centimeters, also established by accepted conventions.

So you admit that your claim about the height of your desk is just based on uniformitarianist evolutionist ruleratarianismist conventions.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 280 by nwr, posted 01-13-2008 11:50 PM nwr has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 291 by nwr, posted 01-14-2008 9:40 AM Dr Adequate has responded

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 5585
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005


Message 291 of 295 (448613)
01-14-2008 9:40 AM
Reply to: Message 290 by Dr Adequate
01-14-2008 9:27 AM


Re: pedantic interjection
You admit, in other words, that your theory is unfalsifiable, a dogma about which there can be "no doubt".

The best scientific theories are unfalsifiable. Popper's falsificationism is unfalsifiable.

This means that rulerarianism is not scientific, it is a religion.

There is no factual basis for the use of falsifiability to distinguish science from religion. It is folklore, though admittedly it is folklore that many scientists find convenient to accept.

There are clear distinctions between science and non-science, but falsifiability is not one of them.

Incidently, we are way off topic for this thread, so I don't expect to further respond on this side issue.


Let's end the political smears
This message is a reply to:
 Message 290 by Dr Adequate, posted 01-14-2008 9:27 AM Dr Adequate has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 292 by Dr Adequate, posted 01-14-2008 10:35 AM nwr has responded

  
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 16085
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 10.0


Message 292 of 295 (448616)
01-14-2008 10:35 AM
Reply to: Message 291 by nwr
01-14-2008 9:40 AM


Re: pedantic interjection
The best scientific theories are unfalsifiable.

So will you admit that evolutionistianarianismist measurements of your desk are unfalsifiable, in which case they are not science according to Popper, or will you admit that measurements of your desk are not the best science, according to you?

There is no factual basis for the use of falsifiability to distinguish science from religion. It is folklore, though admittedly it is folklore that many scientists find convenient to accept.

There are clear distinctions between science and non-science, but falsifiability is not one of them.

Incidently, we are way off topic for this thread, so I don't expect to further respond on this side issue.

You know I'm joking, right?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 291 by nwr, posted 01-14-2008 9:40 AM nwr has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 293 by Percy, posted 01-14-2008 12:05 PM Dr Adequate has not yet responded
 Message 294 by nwr, posted 01-14-2008 12:39 PM Dr Adequate has not yet responded

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 18309
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 293 of 295 (448621)
01-14-2008 12:05 PM
Reply to: Message 292 by Dr Adequate
01-14-2008 10:35 AM


Re: pedantic interjection
Dr Adequate writes:

You know I'm joking, right?

When will we ever learn it's not possible to have a serious discussion with an anti-evolutionistianarianismist! :D

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 292 by Dr Adequate, posted 01-14-2008 10:35 AM Dr Adequate has not yet responded

    
nwr
Member
Posts: 5585
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005


Message 294 of 295 (448622)
01-14-2008 12:39 PM
Reply to: Message 292 by Dr Adequate
01-14-2008 10:35 AM


Re: pedantic interjection
You know I'm joking, right?

Certainly. But it is still off topic.


Let's end the political smears
This message is a reply to:
 Message 292 by Dr Adequate, posted 01-14-2008 10:35 AM Dr Adequate has not yet responded

  
nator
Member (Idle past 247 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 295 of 295 (448641)
01-14-2008 5:27 PM
Reply to: Message 287 by Percy
01-14-2008 7:47 AM


Re: Sudden Appearances
quote:
If you're sincere in wanting evidence and would like to give examining that evidence another try then the greatest wealth of evidence presented for evolution is probably in the original book on the subject, Darwin's Origins. It's very readable, and though dry, if it's evidence you're looking for then there isn't a better place. You can find it in any library and most bookstores, and nearby it you'll find a wealth of more contemporary books that also present a lot of evidence.

The entire text of Origin of Species is available for free online here.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 287 by Percy, posted 01-14-2008 7:47 AM Percy has not yet responded

    
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