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Author Topic:   Poor Satan, so misunderstood.
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 256 of 301 (448728)
01-15-2008 12:56 AM
Reply to: Message 255 by ringo
01-14-2008 11:18 PM


Hi Ringo,
Ringo writes:
If Jesus was sin-free,
Quick question.
Are you saying Jesus committed sin?
Have fun,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 255 by ringo, posted 01-14-2008 11:18 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 257 by ringo, posted 01-15-2008 1:33 AM ICANT has replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 257 of 301 (448735)
01-15-2008 1:33 AM
Reply to: Message 256 by ICANT
01-15-2008 12:56 AM


ICANT writes:
Are you saying Jesus committed sin?
I'm saying He wouldn't have been completely human if He didn't.

“If you had half a brain, wouldn't you have realized after the second time, that it was you, not God?” -- riVeRraT (see context here)
“The endearing controvertist! One needs to become acute in the ploys of his kind.” -- ThreeDogs

This message is a reply to:
 Message 256 by ICANT, posted 01-15-2008 12:56 AM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 259 by New Cat's Eye, posted 01-15-2008 1:39 AM ringo has not replied
 Message 266 by ICANT, posted 01-15-2008 1:30 PM ringo has replied

New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 258 of 301 (448736)
01-15-2008 1:38 AM
Reply to: Message 255 by ringo
01-14-2008 11:18 PM


The "person" who tempted Him? There's a pretty strong clue that the whole story is figurative:
Well, your logic is a little choppy, but I get what you're saying.
Ain't no such mountain.
I wouldn't use the lack of a minute detail to discount the whole story, but that's me...
It's nonsense, of course. If Jesus was sin-free, He wasn't human. If He didn't have the same evil inside that we all do, He's irrelevant.
Well, my argument for the mutual exclusiveness of human-ness and god-ness would be off-topic here, so we can just drop it... for now
If He didn't have the capacity to sin, the temptation by the "devil" would have been meaningless.
I'm not so sure that Jesus did not have the capacity for sin, just that he had the strength to overcome it, or whatever, but again, that has little to do with the misunderstandings of satan, so we'll have to touch on it another time.
I was just wondering. Thanks for sharing.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 255 by ringo, posted 01-14-2008 11:18 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 260 by ringo, posted 01-15-2008 1:52 AM New Cat's Eye has replied

New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 259 of 301 (448737)
01-15-2008 1:39 AM
Reply to: Message 257 by ringo
01-15-2008 1:33 AM


I'm saying He wouldn't have been completely human if He didn't.
What makes you think that he was completely human?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 257 by ringo, posted 01-15-2008 1:33 AM ringo has not replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 260 of 301 (448741)
01-15-2008 1:52 AM
Reply to: Message 258 by New Cat's Eye
01-15-2008 1:38 AM


Catholic Scientist writes:
quote:
Ain't no such mountain.
I wouldn't use the lack of a minute detail to discount the whole story, but that's me...
Minute detail? If "the devil" had taken Jesus to Neverland and fed Him to Captain Hook, would you still take it literally? If a fictitious location doesn't make a story fiction, what does?
I'm not so sure that Jesus did not have the capacity for sin, just that he had the strength to overcome it....
Superhuman strength to overcome temptation would make Him non-human and irrelevant.
(The misunderstanding of "the devil" in this story is as on-topic as the misunderstanding of Satan anywhere else.)
What makes you think that he was completely human?
I didn't say I did - but isn't that the standard doctrine?
If Jesus was just another god in disguise, what distinguishes him from, say, Zeus trying to seduce a swan?

“If you had half a brain, wouldn't you have realized after the second time, that it was you, not God?” -- riVeRraT (see context here)
“The endearing controvertist! One needs to become acute in the ploys of his kind.” -- ThreeDogs

This message is a reply to:
 Message 258 by New Cat's Eye, posted 01-15-2008 1:38 AM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 261 by New Cat's Eye, posted 01-15-2008 2:20 AM ringo has replied

New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 261 of 301 (448751)
01-15-2008 2:20 AM
Reply to: Message 260 by ringo
01-15-2008 1:52 AM


Minute detail? If "the devil" had taken Jesus to Neverland and fed Him to Captain Hook, would you still take it literally? If a fictitious location doesn't make a story fiction, what does?
Maybe it was a real mountain but they were not seeing all of the world...
But yeah, its a minute detail.
It just doesn't seem like an important part of the story... where he was exactly and what exactly he was seeing...
We don't have to take it literally. Then, it could just be a personification of the devil, but the story seems to say that Jesus was talking to an actual person. The location of their conversation doesn't really seem to matter.
What makes you think that he was completely human?
I didn't say I did - but isn't that the standard doctrine?
Not that I'm aware of. Like I said, God-ness and human-ness are mutaully exclusive, IMHO.
If Jesus was just another god in disguise, what distinguishes him from, say, Zeus trying to seduce a swan?
He was the son of Jehovah.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 260 by ringo, posted 01-15-2008 1:52 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 262 by ringo, posted 01-15-2008 2:29 AM New Cat's Eye has replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 262 of 301 (448752)
01-15-2008 2:29 AM
Reply to: Message 261 by New Cat's Eye
01-15-2008 2:20 AM


Catholic Scientist writes:
Then, it could just be a personification of the devil, but the story seems to say that Jesus was talking to an actual person.
That's what personification is.
The location of their conversation doesn't really seem to matter.
It's an indication that the story shouldn't be taken too literally. If the location isn't literal, why should the character(s) be literal?

“If you had half a brain, wouldn't you have realized after the second time, that it was you, not God?” -- riVeRraT (see context here)
“The endearing controvertist! One needs to become acute in the ploys of his kind.” -- ThreeDogs

This message is a reply to:
 Message 261 by New Cat's Eye, posted 01-15-2008 2:20 AM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 263 by New Cat's Eye, posted 01-15-2008 2:43 AM ringo has replied

New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 263 of 301 (448753)
01-15-2008 2:43 AM
Reply to: Message 262 by ringo
01-15-2008 2:29 AM


Catholic Scientist writes:
Then, it could just be a personification of the devil, but the story seems to say that Jesus was talking to an actual person.
That's what personification is.
If that is what personification is, then how can you talk about an actual person without personifying them?
And with that logic, you could argue that Jesus was just a personification.
It's an indication that the story shouldn't be taken too literally. If the location isn't literal, why should the character(s) be literal?
My point was that if that was a personification of the devil, and Jesus has the same sin-ness in him that we do, then Jesus is "de-godified".
But you said you think that he is considered to be completely human, and therefore not god (IMO), so there's not much more to discuss. We have a difference of opinion on the human-ness of Jesus.
If he was completely human, then I have no problem with the devil character in Luke 4 simply being a personificiation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 262 by ringo, posted 01-15-2008 2:29 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 264 by ringo, posted 01-15-2008 2:59 AM New Cat's Eye has replied
 Message 265 by purpledawn, posted 01-15-2008 7:00 AM New Cat's Eye has not replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 264 of 301 (448758)
01-15-2008 2:59 AM
Reply to: Message 263 by New Cat's Eye
01-15-2008 2:43 AM


Catholic Scientist writes:
If that is what personification is, then how can you talk about an actual person without personifying them?
Once again, personification is talking about a non-person as if it was a person. You can't personify a person any more than you can liquify a liquid.
And with that logic, you could argue that Jesus was just a personification.
Yes, you could.
My point was that if that was a personification of the devil...
"The devil" is a personification of evil.
... and Jesus has the same sin-ness in him that we do, then Jesus is "de-godified".
Of course. That's the whole point of the incarnation. If He was still God, it would just be a fly-by.
If he was completely human, then I have no problem with the devil character in Luke 4 simply being a personificiation.
I don't see how it makes any difference. Jesus' temptation could only be significant if He was human. It doesn't matter whether the temptation was by a real spooky devil or just His innate humanness.
The fictional locale is just an indication that (in this particular story) the devil is a plot device and not a real entity. Other references to "Satan" have their own indications - as we have discussed in this thread.

“If you had half a brain, wouldn't you have realized after the second time, that it was you, not God?” -- riVeRraT (see context here)
“The endearing controvertist! One needs to become acute in the ploys of his kind.” -- ThreeDogs

This message is a reply to:
 Message 263 by New Cat's Eye, posted 01-15-2008 2:43 AM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 286 by New Cat's Eye, posted 01-15-2008 6:24 PM ringo has replied

purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 265 of 301 (448771)
01-15-2008 7:00 AM
Reply to: Message 263 by New Cat's Eye
01-15-2008 2:43 AM


Personification
I'm not sure why people seem to have so much trouble with personification, since we apply it so easily.
Personification is a literary technique in which inanimate objects or abstract ideas are endowed with human self-awareness. IOW, human thoughts, actions, perceptions and emotions are attributed to the inanimate object or abstract idea.
But there is another aspect of personification that applies to the use of Satan.
Taking a human behavior or a force of nature and representing it as a person is also personification.
Wisdom is personified in the Bible. Jealousy is another that is personified often.
We can't personify people because they are already endowed with human self-awareness.
Understand?

"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

This message is a reply to:
 Message 263 by New Cat's Eye, posted 01-15-2008 2:43 AM New Cat's Eye has not replied

ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 266 of 301 (448848)
01-15-2008 1:30 PM
Reply to: Message 257 by ringo
01-15-2008 1:33 AM


Re-Competely Human
Hi Ringo,
Ringo writes:
I'm saying He wouldn't have been completely human if He didn't.
Good observation, so I have to agree with you.
But he was not completely human.
Jesus was God in a flesh body just like you and I have.
To be exactly like you are, completely human as you refer to He would have to have been of the seed of Joseph which He was not.
That was the reason for the virgin birth of Jesus.
Jesus to be a perfect sacrifice for the sins of man could have no sin in him. So He had to be placed in Mary's womb in the first artificial insemination project every carried out, which was performed by the Holy Spirit.
You have always come over to me as one who believes we are a sinner because of the deeds we do.
That is wrong. We do the things we do because we are a sinner. We inherit a sin nature from the first man and woman that was on the earth.
Enjoy,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 257 by ringo, posted 01-15-2008 1:33 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 267 by ringo, posted 01-15-2008 2:05 PM ICANT has replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 267 of 301 (448853)
01-15-2008 2:05 PM
Reply to: Message 266 by ICANT
01-15-2008 1:30 PM


Re: Re-Competely Human
ICANT writes:
We do the things we do because we are a sinner. We inherit a sin nature from the first man and woman that was on the earth.
You're illustrating very well the misunderstanding about "Satan".
"Being a sinner" is utterly irrelevant. "Inheriting a sin nature" is utterly irrelevant. It's only what we do that counts. As Jesus said, loving our neighbours as ourselves is all that God wants us to do. As Jesus also said, we are judged - sheep versus goats - by what we do, not by what we believe.
The misunderstanding is that "Satan" is somehow to blame for what we do. Our "sinful nature" is our nature. It's how God created us. It isn't an external influence of any kind.

“If you had half a brain, wouldn't you have realized after the second time, that it was you, not God?” -- riVeRraT (see context here)
“The endearing controvertist! One needs to become acute in the ploys of his kind.” -- ThreeDogs

This message is a reply to:
 Message 266 by ICANT, posted 01-15-2008 1:30 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 270 by ICANT, posted 01-15-2008 3:14 PM ringo has replied

ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 268 of 301 (448864)
01-15-2008 2:50 PM


Re-Whatever
Hi Guys and Gals,
Let me dive into this discussion. I am not going to offer a lot of scripture proofs for anything as it would take too much time in the beginning and many don't believe the Bible anyway.
I am going to make a statement of how I understand the things that is being discussed here. Specific questions can be asked later and those interested in scriptures can ask for them.
Jesus was God in the flesh. He was not the descendent of the first man on earth and was not therefore under the penalty of sin that was passed up that man and all his descendants. Thus He was not born a sinner.
Satan, Devil, or whatever name you call him is not a personification.
He is a real spiritual being and can appear in any form he choses. He could appear as the most beautiful woman that you have ever seen. He could appear as the most handsome man you have ever seen or anything else he desired to deceive mankind.
There was three arch angels Satan was known as the Son of the Morning. His domain was the earth that is what he was to care for.
He decided one day he was as good as God and would exalt himself and his angels to be equal with God. God cast Satan out of Heaven. Every since that time there has been a war being waged over the earth. That is the reason Jesus had to come and die on the cross and redeem the world and its inhabitants.
Satan's dominion did not change he was still over the earth. That dominion will end when he is finally cast into the lake of fire after the final time he tries to destroy Jerusalem.
When Satan took Jesus up on the mountain which Ringo says there is not one high enough. Sorry to disappoint Ringo but they could have been in a valley and it would not have made any difference all satan had to do was point around where he stood.
The entire earth is the dominion, kingdom of satan at the present, he is the prince and power of the air, satan does as he pleases on earth unless God intervenes and stops him. Sorry if I disappoint all you God bashers out there. You like to blame God for all the problems on earth. When you should blame the power that is in charge and that is satan. Don't get me wrong God could intervene and put a stop to it. That will happen the time has already been appointed but until that time, time goes on.
Satan knows the scriptures and he was offering Jesus a shortcut to the kingdom on earth promised to David of which there would be no end.
Did satan have the power, or authority to make this offer? Sure he did it was his kingdom then as it is today.
Now if Jesus had accepted the offer of satan He would not have had to go to the cross and suffer separation from God the Father for the space of 3 hours.
The kingdom would have been Jesus' to do with as He pleased the only problem is He would have to have exalted satan above God the Father and worshiped satan.
Be not deceived satan is real. He can kill you, he can give you your hearts desire here on earth. All you have to do is follow him. He knows his destination and he would like to have your company because if you are with him that is one that God does not have. He can say I won that battle.
Have fun,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

Replies to this message:
 Message 269 by ringo, posted 01-15-2008 3:00 PM ICANT has replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 269 of 301 (448865)
01-15-2008 3:00 PM
Reply to: Message 268 by ICANT
01-15-2008 2:50 PM


Re: Re-Whatever
We all know the dogma. The point of the thread is to point out that the dogma is wrong.
All you're saying is, "Nuh uh."

“If you had half a brain, wouldn't you have realized after the second time, that it was you, not God?” -- riVeRraT (see context here)
“The endearing controvertist! One needs to become acute in the ploys of his kind.” -- ThreeDogs

This message is a reply to:
 Message 268 by ICANT, posted 01-15-2008 2:50 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 273 by ICANT, posted 01-15-2008 3:44 PM ringo has replied

ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 270 of 301 (448871)
01-15-2008 3:14 PM
Reply to: Message 267 by ringo
01-15-2008 2:05 PM


Re: Re-Competely Human
Hi Ringo,
Ringo writes:
Inheriting a sin nature" is utterly irrelevant.
You want to talk about spiritual thing or evolutionary things?
I will tell you what God says and you will say no that is not right I believe this or that. You are entitled to your beliefs. You have a problem with me in evolutionary threads and that is because I do not understand evolution as perceived by many. I am sure here we will have many problems because you do not understand spiritual things.
You almost busted my ear drums with that scream you just let out but believe me spiritual things are spiritually discerned. God said so.
1Cor 2:14 (KJV) But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
Before you can understand spiritual things you must believe in God.
Not only do you have to believe in Him you have to believe Him.
At that point you are beginning on the road to understanding spiritual things.
Have fun now,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 267 by ringo, posted 01-15-2008 2:05 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 271 by sidelined, posted 01-15-2008 3:22 PM ICANT has replied
 Message 272 by ringo, posted 01-15-2008 3:35 PM ICANT has not replied

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