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Author Topic:   How will creationists react to the first human-chimp hybrid?
ringo
Member (Idle past 439 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 11 of 138 (448858)
01-15-2008 2:46 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by teen4christ
01-15-2008 2:14 PM


teen4christ writes:
It will probably be something like a mule with an odd number of chromosomes.
I thought the standard creationist idea was that horses and donkeys can interbreed because they're the same "kind". Wouldn't a chimp/human hybrid imply that we too are the same "kind"?

“If you had half a brain, wouldn't you have realized after the second time, that it was you, not God?” -- riVeRraT (see context here)
“The endearing controvertist! One needs to become acute in the ploys of his kind.” -- ThreeDogs

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by teen4christ, posted 01-15-2008 2:14 PM teen4christ has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 15 by teen4christ, posted 01-15-2008 3:14 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 439 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 18 of 138 (448879)
01-15-2008 3:26 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by teen4christ
01-15-2008 3:14 PM


teen4christ writes:
quote:
I thought the standard creationist idea was that horses and donkeys can interbreed because they're the same "kind". Wouldn't a chimp/human hybrid imply that we too are the same "kind"?
I don't know. Would it?
I was hoping you'd put a little thought into it instead of just responding, "Huh?"
Horses and donkeys can produce hybrids "after their kind". If humans and chimps can do likewise, you either have to call them the same "kind" or rethink the "kind" concept.

“If you had half a brain, wouldn't you have realized after the second time, that it was you, not God?” -- riVeRraT (see context here)
“The endearing controvertist! One needs to become acute in the ploys of his kind.” -- ThreeDogs

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by teen4christ, posted 01-15-2008 3:14 PM teen4christ has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by teen4christ, posted 01-15-2008 3:34 PM ringo has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 439 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 21 of 138 (448889)
01-15-2008 3:45 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by teen4christ
01-15-2008 3:32 PM


teen4christ writes:
Don't you think it's quite a leap to go from creating a hybrid and concluding that the two parent organisms are related?
For example. As a strategy for my laziness, I've taken subroutines and portions of my friends' programs and combine them with my programs that had absolutely nothing to do with their original programs to create, if you'd prefer, "hybrid" programs. All this proves is that if done right we could combine segments of codes to form new protocols because these codes are all written in the same language.
If they're in the same language, how are they not related?

“If you had half a brain, wouldn't you have realized after the second time, that it was you, not God?” -- riVeRraT (see context here)
“The endearing controvertist! One needs to become acute in the ploys of his kind.” -- ThreeDogs

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by teen4christ, posted 01-15-2008 3:32 PM teen4christ has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by teen4christ, posted 01-15-2008 3:49 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 439 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 24 of 138 (448896)
01-15-2008 4:03 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by teen4christ
01-15-2008 3:49 PM


teen4christ writes:
Only reason I was able to combine them was because both programs used the same language, which apparently somebody at some point created.
The point here is the language, not whether or not it was created.
Two programs can be "hybridized" if they are closely enough related and two organisms can be hybridized if they are closely enough related. Thus, a chimp/human hybrid would seem to suggest a close relationship. To deny that seems disingenuous.
If "somebody apparently created" the system, that doesn't change the relationships between components in the system.

“If you had half a brain, wouldn't you have realized after the second time, that it was you, not God?” -- riVeRraT (see context here)
“The endearing controvertist! One needs to become acute in the ploys of his kind.” -- ThreeDogs

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by teen4christ, posted 01-15-2008 3:49 PM teen4christ has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by teen4christ, posted 01-15-2008 4:12 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 439 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 28 of 138 (448903)
01-15-2008 4:27 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by teen4christ
01-15-2008 4:12 PM


teen4christ writes:
I just noticed how my posts are outnumbering your posts in this thread. It's my experience that some forums hate this.
As long as you're contributing something worthwhile, I wouldn't worry about it.
I think both camps would agree that apes and humans are very much related. How we are related is another matter and this is where our opinions split.
Well, "related" means having a common ancestor. I'm related to my cousins because we have the same grandparents.
In the context of this topic, it looks like creationists will manage to deny that chimps and humans have a common ancestor even if they can be shown to be closely "related". Obfuscating "related" to mean "similar" in the sense of similar chemistry or similar body plan is a typical creationist tactic.

“If you had half a brain, wouldn't you have realized after the second time, that it was you, not God?” -- riVeRraT (see context here)
“The endearing controvertist! One needs to become acute in the ploys of his kind.” -- ThreeDogs

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by teen4christ, posted 01-15-2008 4:12 PM teen4christ has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 29 by teen4christ, posted 01-15-2008 5:26 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 439 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 30 of 138 (448927)
01-15-2008 6:02 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by teen4christ
01-15-2008 5:26 PM


teen4christ writes:
We are not obfuscating the word here. We are merely pointing out that things CAN be related through ways other than genetic inheritance.
Another common creationist tactic. You're ignoring the original point I made, that reproduction "according to its kind" is about genetic inheritance.
If horses and donkeys can reproduce together, it's because they have similar enough DNA. They are distant cousins, not just similar artworks. If you deny that, do you also deny the use of DNA for paternity tests?
If chimps and humans can also reproduce together, it's also because they have similar enough DNA. So why would they not be distant cousins instead of just similar artworks?
It seems to me that all you're doing is groping for an excuse to deny your (blood) relatives - and a pretty lame excuse at that.

“If you had half a brain, wouldn't you have realized after the second time, that it was you, not God?” -- riVeRraT (see context here)
“The endearing controvertist! One needs to become acute in the ploys of his kind.” -- ThreeDogs

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by teen4christ, posted 01-15-2008 5:26 PM teen4christ has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 32 by teen4christ, posted 01-15-2008 6:27 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 439 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 34 of 138 (448949)
01-15-2008 6:38 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by teen4christ
01-15-2008 6:27 PM


teen4christ writes:
... I am simply pointing out that the similarities could also be accounted by a common design.
"Could also be accounted" isn't what we're going for though. We're looking for the best possible explanation - and a useful explanation, preferably. If my car won't start, it "could be accounted for" by the Martians who want me to be late for work. But the loose battery cable is a more useful explanation. It allows me to actually fix the problem.
Similarly, recognizing the genetic relationship between humans and other animals is useful in medical research.
By the way, why couldn't the genetic markers in paternity testing be accounted for in some other way? Why do you cherry-pick which parts of genetics you want to believe but feel free to make up phoney-baloney "other accounts" for the ones you don't like?

“If you had half a brain, wouldn't you have realized after the second time, that it was you, not God?” -- riVeRraT (see context here)
“The endearing controvertist! One needs to become acute in the ploys of his kind.” -- ThreeDogs

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by teen4christ, posted 01-15-2008 6:27 PM teen4christ has not replied

  
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