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Author Topic:   Poor Satan, so misunderstood.
sidelined
Member (Idle past 5908 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 271 of 301 (448874)
01-15-2008 3:22 PM
Reply to: Message 270 by ICANT
01-15-2008 3:14 PM


Re: Re-Competely Human
ICANT
You almost busted my ear drums with that scream you just let out but believe me spiritual things are spiritually discerned. God said so.
Where did God say that? In the bible? The bible was written by men and men cannot be trusted so how do determine the veracity of your claim for God sir?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 270 by ICANT, posted 01-15-2008 3:14 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 274 by ICANT, posted 01-15-2008 3:53 PM sidelined has replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 272 of 301 (448884)
01-15-2008 3:35 PM
Reply to: Message 270 by ICANT
01-15-2008 3:14 PM


Re: Re-Competely Human
ICANT writes:
You want to talk about spiritual thing or evolutionary things?
The topic isn't about either of those things.
I am sure here we will have many problems because you do not understand spiritual things.
The problem in this thread is that people misunderstand the "Satan" concept in the Bible. When their misunderstanding is pointed out in detail - as it has been thoroughout this thread - they have no response to the details. Their only response is, "You don't understand spiritual things."
It should be clear from the thread who understands and who is just parroting dogma.
Respond to the actual points. Don't waste posts on dogma that we've all heard a thousand times before.

“If you had half a brain, wouldn't you have realized after the second time, that it was you, not God?” -- riVeRraT (see context here)
“The endearing controvertist! One needs to become acute in the ploys of his kind.” -- ThreeDogs

This message is a reply to:
 Message 270 by ICANT, posted 01-15-2008 3:14 PM ICANT has not replied

ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 273 of 301 (448888)
01-15-2008 3:44 PM
Reply to: Message 269 by ringo
01-15-2008 3:00 PM


Re: Re-Whatever
Hi Ringo,
Ringo writes:
We all know the dogma.
No we all don't know the dogma.
The point of the thread is to point out that the dogma is wrong.
In the OP Greatest I Am says many things then asks a question.
I see nowhere that the point was to show the dogma wrong. I do see that He wants to know should we do a specific thing.
Message 1
Greatest I Am writes:
Should we love Satan?
I don't know how others would answer that question.
I know my answer and my answer is yes.
I am supposed to love everybody. Now satan is not a human but he is very special and held a very special office. Now if satan had not tried to exalt himself above God there would have never been a me.
If satan had not convinced Eve to eat the fruit there would never have been a me.
If satan had never tempted Jesus I would never have had an opportunity to go to be with Jesus.
Satan made his decision and he must pay the penalty.
But I have to thank him for what he did for me.
Satan get accused of a lot of things. The devil made me do it type stuff.
But in reality satan only secured you an opportunity to choose.
Have fun now,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 269 by ringo, posted 01-15-2008 3:00 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 275 by ringo, posted 01-15-2008 3:54 PM ICANT has replied

ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 274 of 301 (448892)
01-15-2008 3:53 PM
Reply to: Message 271 by sidelined
01-15-2008 3:22 PM


Re: Re-Competely Human
Hi sidelined,
sidelined writes:
Where did God say that? In the bible? The bible was written by men and men cannot be trusted so how do determine the veracity of your claim for God sir?
Hopefuly now you can understand my flustration at many evolutionist claims when they only have some man's word for it. Or have to answer with "we don't know".
If you do not believe the Bible to be the Word of God I cannot convince you of anything spiritual.
Have fun,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 271 by sidelined, posted 01-15-2008 3:22 PM sidelined has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 287 by sidelined, posted 01-15-2008 6:44 PM ICANT has replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 275 of 301 (448893)
01-15-2008 3:54 PM
Reply to: Message 273 by ICANT
01-15-2008 3:44 PM


Re: Re-Whatever
ICANT writes:
I see nowhere that the point was to show the dogma wrong.
Read the rest of the thread. Greatest I Am makes it clearer what his intent was.
quote:
Should we love Satan?
I don't know how others would answer that question.
Read the thread. Several people have answered the question.
Now if satan had not tried to exalt himself above God there would have never been a me.
That's just more non-Biblical dogma (and yes, we have heard it all).
But in reality satan only secured you an opportunity to choose.
God gave us the oppurtunity to choose long before "Satan" came on the scene. Our choices have been symbolized by various "Satan" characters in the Bible.

“If you had half a brain, wouldn't you have realized after the second time, that it was you, not God?” -- riVeRraT (see context here)
“The endearing controvertist! One needs to become acute in the ploys of his kind.” -- ThreeDogs

This message is a reply to:
 Message 273 by ICANT, posted 01-15-2008 3:44 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 276 by ICANT, posted 01-15-2008 4:14 PM ringo has replied
 Message 278 by Phat, posted 01-15-2008 4:52 PM ringo has replied
 Message 281 by ICANT, posted 01-15-2008 5:07 PM ringo has replied

ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 276 of 301 (448900)
01-15-2008 4:14 PM
Reply to: Message 275 by ringo
01-15-2008 3:54 PM


Re: Re-Whatever
Ringo writes:
God gave us the oppurtunity to choose long before "Satan" came on the scene.
I would love to be enlightened on this point.
Like when, where, and even, when did satan come on the scene?

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 275 by ringo, posted 01-15-2008 3:54 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 277 by ringo, posted 01-15-2008 4:40 PM ICANT has replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 277 of 301 (448906)
01-15-2008 4:40 PM
Reply to: Message 276 by ICANT
01-15-2008 4:14 PM


Re: Re-Whatever
ICANT writes:
I would love to be enlightened on this point.
Like when, where, and even, when did satan come on the scene?
Satan came on the scene at different times in different stories. Look for "Enter Satan" in the script.
Here's an example:
quote:
Job 1:6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.
A character named "Satan" walks into the board meeting.
Make no assumptions about who he is. Treat Satan in Job like you would treat Robert Jordan in For Whom the Bell Tolls or Holden Caulfield in The Catcher in the Rye. The story tells you everything you need to know about the character.
To think that there is one villain encompassed by every story in the Bible, with one back-story and one purpose, is the profound misunderstanding that this whole thread is about. Read it and begin your enlightenment.

“If you had half a brain, wouldn't you have realized after the second time, that it was you, not God?” -- riVeRraT (see context here)
“The endearing controvertist! One needs to become acute in the ploys of his kind.” -- ThreeDogs

This message is a reply to:
 Message 276 by ICANT, posted 01-15-2008 4:14 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 283 by ICANT, posted 01-15-2008 5:48 PM ringo has replied

Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 278 of 301 (448907)
01-15-2008 4:52 PM
Reply to: Message 275 by ringo
01-15-2008 3:54 PM


Re: Re-Whatever
Ringo writes:
God gave us the opportunity to choose long before "Satan" came on the scene. Our choices have been symbolized by various "Satan" characters in the Bible.
Would you say that our first actual choice (symbolically) was to choose freewill over obedience?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 275 by ringo, posted 01-15-2008 3:54 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 279 by ringo, posted 01-15-2008 4:57 PM Phat has replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 279 of 301 (448908)
01-15-2008 4:57 PM
Reply to: Message 278 by Phat
01-15-2008 4:52 PM


Re: Re-Whatever
Phat writes:
Would you say that our first actual choice (symbolically) was to choose freewill over obedience?
Somebody said recently that the first choice was between knowledge and obedience. I would suggest that that choice was the one God had in mind when He gave us free will.

“If you had half a brain, wouldn't you have realized after the second time, that it was you, not God?” -- riVeRraT (see context here)
“The endearing controvertist! One needs to become acute in the ploys of his kind.” -- ThreeDogs

This message is a reply to:
 Message 278 by Phat, posted 01-15-2008 4:52 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 280 by Phat, posted 01-15-2008 5:02 PM ringo has replied

Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 280 of 301 (448909)
01-15-2008 5:02 PM
Reply to: Message 279 by ringo
01-15-2008 4:57 PM


So In Other Words...
So in other words, GOD, being omnipotant and foreknowing everything (except perhaps limiting Himself to not foreknowing future human decisions) was not surprised in any way when Eve listened to that pesky snake with legs! Right?
BTW...it wouldn't make any sense if God foreknew everything and yet was set to punish those who chose wrongly....would it?
I mean....its too obvious that GOD understands the depths of human nature, having been the original manufacturer.

"All that we call human history--money, poverty, ambition, war, prostitution, classes, empires, slavery--[is] the long terrible story of man trying to find something other than God which will make him happy."--C.S.Lewis
* * * * * * * * * *
“The world has achieved brilliance without wisdom, power without conscience. Ours is a world of nuclear giants and ethical infants.”--General Omar Bradley
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
"The free man owns himself. He can damage himself with either eating or drinking; he can ruin himself with gambling. If he does he is certainly a damn fool, and he might possibly be a damned soul; but if he may not, he is not a free man any more than a dog." -GK Chesterson

This message is a reply to:
 Message 279 by ringo, posted 01-15-2008 4:57 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 284 by ringo, posted 01-15-2008 5:50 PM Phat has not replied

ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 281 of 301 (448910)
01-15-2008 5:07 PM
Reply to: Message 275 by ringo
01-15-2008 3:54 PM


Re: Re-Whatever
Hi Ringo,
ICANT writes:
I see nowhere that the point was to show the dogma wrong.
Ringo writes:
Read the rest of the thread. Greatest I Am makes it clearer what his intent was.
I took your adivce and went back and read what Greatest I Am had to say in his 15 posts:
Message 1
Message 6
Message 7
Message 22
Message 23
Message 26
Message 38
Message 39
Message 40
Message 63
Message 64
Message 193
Message 203
Message 235
Message 236
Greatest I Am has a belief that God created everything perfect.
The universe, satan, man, animals everything God created was perfect.
It is still perfect and always will be perfect. It makes no difference what others talk about he stays his course you do not deter him from his talk points.
I do not see where he is trying to prove any dogma wrong only that his perfect world is right.
I admire him for his patience and preservence

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 275 by ringo, posted 01-15-2008 3:54 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 282 by ringo, posted 01-15-2008 5:44 PM ICANT has replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 282 of 301 (448915)
01-15-2008 5:44 PM
Reply to: Message 281 by ICANT
01-15-2008 5:07 PM


ICANT writes:
I do not see where he is trying to prove any dogma wrong only that his perfect world is right.
I guess you missed it here:
quote:
I agree that Satan is a catch all name for all the evils we perceive. Message 7
and here:
quote:
To think that Jesus took over our responsibility for sin and forgave them all is false. Message 39
and here:
quote:
Man did not fall but with the help and guidance of Eve jumped into the job given to us by God in the beginning. Message 40
and here:
quote:
To think that any one religion is the holder of the one true God is foolish. Message 64
just to show a few examples.
Looks to me like he's trying to overturn dogma.

“If you had half a brain, wouldn't you have realized after the second time, that it was you, not God?” -- riVeRraT (see context here)
“The endearing controvertist! One needs to become acute in the ploys of his kind.” -- ThreeDogs

This message is a reply to:
 Message 281 by ICANT, posted 01-15-2008 5:07 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 288 by ICANT, posted 01-15-2008 6:45 PM ringo has replied

ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 283 of 301 (448920)
01-15-2008 5:48 PM
Reply to: Message 277 by ringo
01-15-2008 4:40 PM


Re: Re-Whatever
Hi Ringo,
Ringo writes:
To think that there is one villain encompassed by every story in the Bible, with one back-story and one purpose, is the profound misunderstanding that this whole thread is about. Read it and begin your enlightenment.
I thought maybe you could enlighten me but oh well I will just have to take God's Word for it.
If I remember correctly when Lucifer which is sometimes refered to
as devil, dragon or satan was fallen he carried a third part of the angels with him. So yes there is a bunch of little fellows running around out there. On the other hand they not so little they are a lot more powerful than you are.
Isai 14:12 (KJV) How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
13. For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.
Isaiah tell us why he fell.
Reve 12:7 (KJV) And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
John tells us how and how many fell.

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 277 by ringo, posted 01-15-2008 4:40 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 285 by ringo, posted 01-15-2008 5:53 PM ICANT has not replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 284 of 301 (448921)
01-15-2008 5:50 PM
Reply to: Message 280 by Phat
01-15-2008 5:02 PM


Re: So In Other Words...
Phat writes:
So in other words, GOD, being omnipotant and foreknowing ...
I don't have much use for the notions of omnipotence and perfect foreknowledge.
... was not surprised in any way when Eve listened to that pesky snake with legs!
The point of the story seems (to me) to be that Eve made the decision we all would (should) make. It's not so much a question of God being "surprised" as an explanation of why it was the right decision.
BTW...it wouldn't make any sense if God foreknew everything and yet was set to punish those who chose wrongly....would it?
Again, foreknowledge doesn't really enter into it. It wouldn't make sense for God to punish us for decisions that He gave us the ability to make.

“If you had half a brain, wouldn't you have realized after the second time, that it was you, not God?” -- riVeRraT (see context here)
“The endearing controvertist! One needs to become acute in the ploys of his kind.” -- ThreeDogs

This message is a reply to:
 Message 280 by Phat, posted 01-15-2008 5:02 PM Phat has not replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 285 of 301 (448922)
01-15-2008 5:53 PM
Reply to: Message 283 by ICANT
01-15-2008 5:48 PM


Re: Re-Whatever
ICANT writes:
So yes there is a bunch of little fellows running around out there. On the other hand they not so little they are a lot more powerful than you are.
Sure, there are hobbits and leprechauns and unicorns too. If you insist on reading everything literally, there's not much hope for enlightenment.

“If you had half a brain, wouldn't you have realized after the second time, that it was you, not God?” -- riVeRraT (see context here)
“The endearing controvertist! One needs to become acute in the ploys of his kind.” -- ThreeDogs

This message is a reply to:
 Message 283 by ICANT, posted 01-15-2008 5:48 PM ICANT has not replied

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