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Author Topic:   Why Do People Steal?
Adminnemooseus
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Message 16 of 270 (448542)
01-13-2008 10:44 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by Cold Foreign Object
01-13-2008 8:35 PM


*****Drop any discussion of evolution, creation, or ID in this topic!*****
Such clearly and absolutely does not belong in this topic.

If you post such prior to seeing this message, go back and edit it out.

I will issue suspension in regards to this matter.

Do not reply to this message in this topic (unless you want a suspension of AT LEAST 24 hours). If you must reply, go to the "General discussion..." topic, link below.

Adminnemooseus


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It really helps moderators figure out if a topic is disintegrating because of general misbehavior versus someone in particular if the originally non-misbehaving members kept it that way. When everyone is prickly and argumentative and off-topic and personal then it's just too difficult to tell. We have neither infinite time to untie the Gordian knot, nor the wisdom of Solomon.

There used to be a comedian who presented his ideas for a better world, and one of them was to arm everyone on the highway with little rubber dart guns. Every time you see a driver doing something stupid, you fire a little dart at his car. When a state trooper sees someone driving down the highway with a bunch of darts all over his car he pulls him over for being an idiot.

Please make it easy to tell you apart from the idiots. Source


This message is a reply to:
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Phat
Member
Posts: 12254
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 17 of 270 (448580)
01-14-2008 2:40 AM
Reply to: Message 11 by Omnivorous
01-13-2008 7:30 PM


Stealing is just not fair!
Nator writes:

The shoplifters' behavior is no different, in my mind, that the behavior of WalMart executives towards their employees.

I agree, Nator. ;) Greed is the downfall of America. I have empathy for a truly poor Mom or Dad who has to steal a bit of food such as a sandwich, although I don't knowing let them do it. What irritates me is the Meth tweaker who is unemployed, hooked, and could care one whit about my job security as long as they can pilfer $30.00 to get high another day. :mad:

Mind you, I have been a gambling addict and know how helpless an addict is, but in my worst days, I never thought of stealing!!

Ringo writes:

Does the "we" that does the estimating do their share of stealing too?

God I hope not, Ringo. I have no idea what my Managers do, but if they too steal, God help this country!

Nemesis writes:

They aren't stealing from you for political reasons, Phat. They are stealing from you so they can have something for nothing, like all thieves.

I think that many thieves feel that they are justified in stealing from a large store that in their opinion charges too much. What they fail to realize is that prices will only continue to go up because of their selfish actions.

nwr writes:

I think the more interesting question is "why do people not steal?"

I was always taught that it was wrong. My parents never stole, and they were my primary early role models.
{They gambled, however! :eek: )

Jon writes:

How much do you folks charge for a gallon of milk? Loaf of bread? Can of soup?

Milk: $2.80. Bread? 89cents on up... Soup? $88 cents on up. But see above. The more greedy people are, the more stores will charge. If they simply lowered their prices, they would be like the evil Wal-Mart....where the executives make a fortune and the peon workers make $7.00 an hour and never will make much more. (WalMart is good for the American Consumer yet bad for the American worker who wants to get ahead in life.)


This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by Omnivorous, posted 01-13-2008 7:30 PM Omnivorous has responded

Replies to this message:
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nator
Member (Idle past 280 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 18 of 270 (448590)
01-14-2008 6:55 AM
Reply to: Message 12 by Cold Foreign Object
01-13-2008 7:54 PM


quote:
Then there is the ex-owner of the Los Angeles Kings - Bruce McNall. He served several years in a federal prison for stealing 70 to 100 million dollars from the Bank of America. Since he stole from the Bank of America I do not view him as a thief since the Bank of America steals from us legally every single day. But McNall is repentant.

Wow, the "But Tommy hit me first" defense never worked for my parents, but I guess it did with yours, eh?

It is OK to do wrong if wrong has been done to you.

Interesting Christian morality you've got there.


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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ThreeDogs
Member (Idle past 3961 days)
Posts: 77
From: noli me calcare
Joined: 01-08-2008


Message 19 of 270 (448614)
01-14-2008 9:41 AM
Reply to: Message 18 by nator
01-14-2008 6:55 AM


quote:
Wow, the "But Tommy hit me first" defense never worked for my parents, but I guess it did with yours, eh?

It is OK to do wrong if wrong has been done to you.

Interesting Christian morality you've got there.



It's one thing to be tempted, another to yield. Jesus was tempted and He had the right answers. Christians should have them too, and do have them. When they steal, they just ignore them, because the sensation of taking something surreptitiously is so adrenaline.

Economic consequences notwithstanding.


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by Phat, posted 01-14-2008 11:33 AM ThreeDogs has responded
 Message 23 by molbiogirl, posted 01-15-2008 6:42 PM ThreeDogs has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 12254
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 20 of 270 (448619)
01-14-2008 11:33 AM
Reply to: Message 19 by ThreeDogs
01-14-2008 9:41 AM


Hitting the nail on the head
ThreeDogs writes:

...the sensation of taking something surreptitiously is so adrenaline.

I couldn't have said it better myself! :laugh:

I suppose, however, that we could then blame all of our addictions and predispositions on adrenaline or some similar hormone.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by ThreeDogs, posted 01-14-2008 9:41 AM ThreeDogs has responded

Replies to this message:
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ThreeDogs
Member (Idle past 3961 days)
Posts: 77
From: noli me calcare
Joined: 01-08-2008


Message 21 of 270 (448631)
01-14-2008 1:41 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by Phat
01-14-2008 11:33 AM


Re: Hitting the nail on the head
quote:
I couldn't have said it better myself!
I suppose, however, that we could then blame all of our addictions and predispositions on adrenaline or some similar

It is my opinion that everything we do is subject to chemicals, either from within us or put within us. Blame is definitely ascribable to the chemicals we chew or puff.

Now, all we have to do is identify the chemical that makes us nuts, let's say testosterone in men and what little bit of it women have, and we are all set to be as benign as mud.


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Omnivorous
Member (Idle past 1078 days)
Posts: 3808
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005


Message 22 of 270 (448943)
01-15-2008 6:30 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by Phat
01-14-2008 2:40 AM


La propriété, c'est le vol!
Phat writes:

What irritates me is the Meth tweaker who is unemployed, hooked, and could care one whit about my job security as long as they can pilfer $30.00 to get high another day.

Stolen goods typically sell for a fraction of their tagged value. I don't think any addict could maintain a daily habit on $30 of purloined groceries. I can see that you want to condemn both drug use and theft, but please don't strain credulity to get two sinners with one stone.

It is usually hungry people who steal food, while addicts steal items more readily converted to cash.

Tens of millions of Americans are disadvantaged, uninsured, un- or underemployed--while billions in tax cuts (measured by our soaring national debt) flow to the wealthiest few: let's call that theft, and see what's left in the morally proportionate lexical set when we sift down to a loaf of bread.

I feel a tugging at my cynical left eyebrow as I listen to liberal, otherwise morally-relativist folks sound-off about the sanctity of property and the unforgivable sin of theft.

"I've got mine--last one in lock the door, set the alarm, and call the police."


Real things always push back.
-William James

Save lives! Click here!
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC!
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This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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molbiogirl
Member (Idle past 752 days)
Posts: 1909
From: MO
Joined: 06-06-2007


Message 23 of 270 (448951)
01-15-2008 6:42 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by ThreeDogs
01-14-2008 9:41 AM


It's one thing to be tempted, another to yield. Jesus was tempted and He had the right answers.

"Do not steal" is not a moral dictate handed down by some sky-dwelling authority.

"Do not steal" is, in large part, an innate tendency that has been cultivated by 100s of 1000s of years of human evolution.


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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nwr
Member
Posts: 5585
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005


Message 24 of 270 (448954)
01-15-2008 6:46 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by molbiogirl
01-15-2008 6:42 PM


"Do not steal" is, in large part, an innate tendency that has been cultivated by 100s of 1000s of years of human evolution.

I'm not so sure about that. I think it more likely cultural than innate.


Let's end the political smears
This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by molbiogirl, posted 01-15-2008 6:42 PM molbiogirl has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by molbiogirl, posted 01-15-2008 6:53 PM nwr has responded

  
nator
Member (Idle past 280 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 25 of 270 (448958)
01-15-2008 6:52 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by Omnivorous
01-15-2008 6:30 PM


Re: La propriété, c'est le vol!
Omni, nobody was shoplifting at Zingerman's becasue they were hungry and poor.

They were wealthy professionals with a problem, or just greedy. Several of them took advantage of the "sure, you can have a shopping bag to carry your groceries in before you've paid for them" policy.

Or, they were likely addicts trying to take advantage of the "you don't need a reciept to return your item" policy. Before we started requiring reciepts for returns, people would come in on really busy days so nobody would notice them take the $60 bottle of olive oil off the shelf that they would then go up to the register and "return" for cash. Somebody even tried to circumvent the policy by photocopying a reciept.

We all deeply resented these people. We worked really hard and here come these people taking advantage of our kindness and trust and bending us over and screwing us. It made us look at all of our customers more suspiciously, and I really hated that.

To make things even worse, Zingerman's does a huge amount of work to feed the hungry and help disadvantaged kids and people in recovery in its community, so much so that its efforts were recently recognized on a national level.


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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molbiogirl
Member (Idle past 752 days)
Posts: 1909
From: MO
Joined: 06-06-2007


Message 26 of 270 (448959)
01-15-2008 6:53 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by nwr
01-15-2008 6:46 PM


You and I don't agree on anything, do we?

It's OT here, so if you'd like to continue this discussion, I would be more than happy to start a new thread re: innate origins of "morals". Be prepared for some serious Pinker talk.


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 Message 24 by nwr, posted 01-15-2008 6:46 PM nwr has responded

Replies to this message:
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nwr
Member
Posts: 5585
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005


Message 27 of 270 (448963)
01-15-2008 7:06 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by molbiogirl
01-15-2008 6:53 PM


You and I don't agree on anything, do we?

Actually, we probably do agree on a lot, but discussion is mainly interesting when there is disagreement.

Certainly there is a spectrum of things where we disagree. Oh, and I am not a Pinker fan.

It's OT here, ...

I'd say that my post (the one to which you replied) was on topic, but I agree that it would be OT to get into evo-psych here. I'm not really looking for a serious debate on it though, as the facts don't exist to settle disagreements in that area.


Let's end the political smears
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 Message 26 by molbiogirl, posted 01-15-2008 6:53 PM molbiogirl has not yet responded

  
Omnivorous
Member (Idle past 1078 days)
Posts: 3808
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005


Message 28 of 270 (448971)
01-15-2008 7:34 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by nator
01-15-2008 6:52 PM


Re: La propriété, c'est le vol!
Nator writes:

Omni, nobody was shoplifting at Zingerman's becasue they were hungry and poor.

They were wealthy professionals with a problem, or just greedy. Several of them took advantage of the "sure, you can have a shopping bag to carry your groceries in before you've paid for them" policy.

Note that I was replying to Phat, who, as I understand it, works in a community where the shoplifters are quite likely to be hungry and poor.

Your contempt for anecdotal evidence seems to have waned :).

Nonetheless, wealthy professionals who steal are symptomatic of a society with deep conflicts surrounding property, equality and privilege--perhaps, since they are already complicit in stealing a decent living from so many, the pocketing of luxury goods seems only natural.

Or, they were likely addicts trying to take advantage of the "you don't need a reciept to return your item" policy. Before we started requiring reciepts for returns, people would come in on really busy days so nobody would notice them take the $60 bottle of olive oil off the shelf that they would then go up to the register and "return" for cash. Somebody even tried to circumvent the policy by photocopying a reciept.

Yes, both need and want birth invention.

We all deeply resented these people. We worked really hard and here come these people taking advantage of our kindness and trust and bending us over and screwing us. It made us look at all of our customers more suspiciously, and I really hated that.

Yes, the infections of inequality and greed poison all of us.

To make things even worse, Zingerman's does a huge amount of work to feed the hungry and help disadvantaged kids and people in recovery in its community, so much so that its efforts were recently recognized on a national level.

Why does that make things worse?


Real things always push back.
-William James

Save lives! Click here!
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC!
---------------------------------------


This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by nator, posted 01-15-2008 6:52 PM nator has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
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Granny Magda
Member (Idle past 1 days)
Posts: 2380
From: UK
Joined: 11-12-2007


Message 29 of 270 (449513)
01-18-2008 8:14 AM
Reply to: Message 28 by Omnivorous
01-15-2008 7:34 PM


Re: La propriété, c'est le vol!
Q: Why did the anarchist only drink herbal tea?
A: Because all proper tea is theft.
:)


Mutate and Survive
This message is a reply to:
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Phat
Member
Posts: 12254
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 30 of 270 (641280)
11-18-2011 11:25 AM
Reply to: Message 28 by Omnivorous
01-15-2008 7:34 PM


Symptoms of societal disfunction
nator writes:

We all deeply resented these people. We worked really hard and here come these people taking advantage of our kindness and trust and bending us over and screwing us. It made us look at all of our customers more suspiciously, and I really hated that.

We too resent them. Most of us live paycheck to paycheck and, since we work, we don't get welfare benefits. Not only do these people get welfare, they steal on top of it so they can dare try and have a lifestyle like ours except that they never earned it!

I think that's what irks me the most. Rich people have everything, and these people are savvy enough to get theirs in life and outmaneuvering those of us trying to make it the honest way.

Although to be honest...if i was denied the privileges I have now, I too would find a way to get mine. Thus, human nature is universal.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by Omnivorous, posted 01-15-2008 7:34 PM Omnivorous has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
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