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Author Topic:   Poor Satan, so misunderstood.
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 286 of 301 (448936)
01-15-2008 6:24 PM
Reply to: Message 264 by ringo
01-15-2008 2:59 AM


Once again, personification is talking about a non-person as if it was a person. You can't personify a person any more than you can liquify a liquid.
You are assuming that the devil is not a person and then saying that anything that says that he is a person is just personification. Your reasoning is most circular.
... and Jesus has the same sin-ness in him that we do, then Jesus is "de-godified".
Of course. That's the whole point of the incarnation. If He was still God, it would just be a fly-by.
But if he was completely human then he was not God, however, he claimed to be God and did not claim to be fully human.
I don't see how it makes any difference. Jesus' temptation could only be significant if He was human.
I think that Jesus became man, but I wouldn't say that he was completely human. If he was, then he couldn't have been God.
Well, I guess I could hand-wave it with the argument that an omnipotent god would have the power to do anything, including being both god AND fully human.
It doesn't matter whether the temptation was by a real spooky devil or just His innate humanness.
It doesn't matter if you don't think that he was god...
The fictional locale is just an indication that (in this particular story) the devil is a plot device and not a real entity.
Got it. Because one detail was in inconsistent, the whole story is fake.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 264 by ringo, posted 01-15-2008 2:59 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 289 by ringo, posted 01-15-2008 6:47 PM New Cat's Eye has not replied

sidelined
Member (Idle past 5908 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 287 of 301 (448952)
01-15-2008 6:44 PM
Reply to: Message 274 by ICANT
01-15-2008 3:53 PM


Re: Re-Competely Human
ICANT
Hopefuly now you can understand my flustration at many evolutionist claims when they only have some man's word for it. Or have to answer with "we don't know".
But we are not making the claim that men cannot be trusted. When a claim is made then a reasonable attempt must be presented to back up a claim.
To answer that we do not know ,if correct , is honest even if not enough to satisfy some people.
If you do not believe the Bible to be the Word of God I cannot convince you of anything spiritual.
That is indeed a dilemma that you must face. However, a good start would be to bring to the fore what it is that you found convincing.
In the course of human investigation it may or may not be that what you accept as sufficient to convince you of the veracity of a position
is ,in fact, demonstratively not so.
Many people have claimed to "know" God in my life, however, the statement " You must first believe that this book {or that text or that man} has the word of God" before you can begin to convince someone of spirituality seems to be an awkward claim.
I think that if something cannot convince me on its own merits without me first adopting a credulous, unquestioning stance then I must apologize for being so skeptical.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 274 by ICANT, posted 01-15-2008 3:53 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 292 by ICANT, posted 01-15-2008 7:48 PM sidelined has replied

ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 288 of 301 (448953)
01-15-2008 6:45 PM
Reply to: Message 282 by ringo
01-15-2008 5:44 PM


Re-Dogma
Hi Ringo,
Ringo writes:
Looks to me like he's trying to overturn dogma.
No I read all those and all I see is Greatest I Am saying I am right these things do not exist and all you people are wrong.
My perfect world is the correct view.
You may view what he said differently. I don't take a sentence and try to define what someone is saying I try to take everything they say into consideration before I try to figure out what they are trying to prove or disprove.
Like in Message 39 where you pointed out:
quote:
To think that Jesus took over our responsibility for sin and forgave them all is false. Message 39
He said in his last sentence:
quote:
There are many roads to Heaven if God maintains His ability to create Perfect souls.
Nothing matters if God creates Perfect souls which He does is what I get.
But you are welcome to read his posts and understand them anyway you desire too that is life.
Have fun,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 282 by ringo, posted 01-15-2008 5:44 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 290 by ringo, posted 01-15-2008 6:55 PM ICANT has not replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 289 of 301 (448957)
01-15-2008 6:47 PM
Reply to: Message 286 by New Cat's Eye
01-15-2008 6:24 PM


Catholic Scientist writes:
You are assuming that the devil is not a person....
No I'm not. I'm concluding that "the devil" is probably a personification of evil because of the indicators that the story is fiction.
quote:
The fictional locale is just an indication that (in this particular story) the devil is a plot device and not a real entity.
Got it. Because one detail was in inconsistent, the whole story is fake.
No.
Because one detail is fictional, other details in the story are possibly/probably fictional too. If Peter Pan flies you to Neverland, chances are there are other fictional aspects to the story.
And fictional is not "fake".

“If you had half a brain, wouldn't you have realized after the second time, that it was you, not God?” -- riVeRraT (see context here)
“The endearing controvertist! One needs to become acute in the ploys of his kind.” -- ThreeDogs

This message is a reply to:
 Message 286 by New Cat's Eye, posted 01-15-2008 6:24 PM New Cat's Eye has not replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 290 of 301 (448961)
01-15-2008 6:55 PM
Reply to: Message 288 by ICANT
01-15-2008 6:45 PM


Re: Re-Dogma
ICANT writes:
quote:
Looks to me like he's trying to overturn dogma.
No I read all those and all I see is Greatest I Am saying I am right these things do not exist and all you people are wrong.
That's what I said. Greatest I Am thinks "all you people are wrong" - i.e. your dogma is wrong. (That's all you people who are parroting the standard Christian dogma about Satan.)
I don't necessarily agree with his ideas on perfection, but I agree that "Satan" (the essence of evil) is doing God's work.

“If you had half a brain, wouldn't you have realized after the second time, that it was you, not God?” -- riVeRraT (see context here)
“The endearing controvertist! One needs to become acute in the ploys of his kind.” -- ThreeDogs

This message is a reply to:
 Message 288 by ICANT, posted 01-15-2008 6:45 PM ICANT has not replied

AdminPD
Inactive Administrator


Message 291 of 301 (448962)
01-15-2008 7:00 PM


Summation Time
Only 9 posts left until End of Thread.
It is a good time to start winding down and presenting summaries, conclusions, or final comments.
Thanks for debating, carry on.
Magic Wand

ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 292 of 301 (448972)
01-15-2008 7:48 PM
Reply to: Message 287 by sidelined
01-15-2008 6:44 PM


Re: Re-Competely Human
Hi sidelined,
sidelined writes:
That is indeed a dilemma that you must face.
Why is that a dilemma I must face. It has absolutly nothing to do with my future.
sidelined writes:
I think that if something cannot convince me on its own merits without me first adopting a credulous, unquestioning stance then I must apologize for being so skeptical.
Sidelined I have been preaching for 45 years and I have never convinced anyone of anything. I do not try to convince people because if I convince them they are converted to me.
I do like a lot of people here say they do.
I state the facts as I know them, I present my evidence for my beliefs. If someone looks at that and is convinced thereby that is fine. If they come to a different conclusion than I did that is fine.
Just remember that our conclusions and the choices they produce determine our future.
If you have read the Bible from cover to cover and come to the conclusion it is a lie so be it.
If you have read something somebody wrote and come to that conclusion that is fine also.
If you have never read it or seen one and have come to the conclusion it is a lie that is fine also.
Just don't expect me to come to the same conclusion.
Now if my theory is correct you and I will be judged out of the things written in that book the Bible. This may create a problem because our ancestors may not have given us the entire truth.
When I say that book the Bible I am talking about the words God spoke and inspired the orginal writers to write down. Not necessarly everything we have today. There has been a lot of humans involved in the books that are called Bibles today.
So you see I may believe a lie and end up in Hell because my ancestors failed to do their job properly.
Have fun,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 287 by sidelined, posted 01-15-2008 6:44 PM sidelined has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 293 by pelican, posted 01-15-2008 11:50 PM ICANT has not replied
 Message 295 by sidelined, posted 01-16-2008 10:33 AM ICANT has replied

pelican
Member (Idle past 4986 days)
Posts: 781
From: australia
Joined: 05-27-2007


Message 293 of 301 (449012)
01-15-2008 11:50 PM
Reply to: Message 292 by ICANT
01-15-2008 7:48 PM


Re: Re-Competely Human
quote:
When I say that book the Bible I am talking about the words God spoke and inspired the orginal writers to write down.
To put it another way, inspired writers wrote what they 'imagined' a god was saying.
Edited by AdminPD, : Fixed quote box

This message is a reply to:
 Message 292 by ICANT, posted 01-15-2008 7:48 PM ICANT has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 294 by Phat, posted 01-16-2008 9:36 AM pelican has replied

Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 294 of 301 (449045)
01-16-2008 9:36 AM
Reply to: Message 293 by pelican
01-15-2008 11:50 PM


Re: Re-Competely Human
Heinrik writes:
To put it another way, inspired writers wrote what they 'imagined' a god was saying.
Literalists would believe that there are two spirits. Two images (or internalized character) and two imaginations.
There is Gods imagination...which is His Spirit.
Then there is humanities own vain imagination...or our freewill character as it were.
There is the image of GOD, The Spirit of GOD...personified in Jesus CHrist.
When we choose to allow God into our hearts, we are allowing His imagination...His Spirit...to become our vision.
There is also the image of the Beast...which has not yet personified itself in any humans only because of the restraining power of the Holy Spirit.(the life of Hitler may provide a counter-argument, as well as many convicted killers)
Of course...critics may say that my argument itself is flawed, pointing out that the authors of the Bible were as imperfect and fallible as the rest of us!
Which is why we have debates such as this one.
Thats my wrap-up. Thanks for participating in the thread and giving your opinions, everyone. Lets each of us make one final thread and summerize our philosophy.
Edited by Phat, : added feature

"All that we call human history--money, poverty, ambition, war, prostitution, classes, empires, slavery--[is] the long terrible story of man trying to find something other than God which will make him happy."--C.S.Lewis
* * * * * * * * * *
“The world has achieved brilliance without wisdom, power without conscience. Ours is a world of nuclear giants and ethical infants.”--General Omar Bradley
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
"The free man owns himself. He can damage himself with either eating or drinking; he can ruin himself with gambling. If he does he is certainly a damn fool, and he might possibly be a damned soul; but if he may not, he is not a free man any more than a dog." -GK Chesterson

This message is a reply to:
 Message 293 by pelican, posted 01-15-2008 11:50 PM pelican has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 298 by pelican, posted 01-16-2008 4:58 PM Phat has not replied

sidelined
Member (Idle past 5908 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 295 of 301 (449062)
01-16-2008 10:33 AM
Reply to: Message 292 by ICANT
01-15-2008 7:48 PM


Re: Re-Competely Human
ICANT
Why is that a dilemma I must face. It has absolutly nothing to do with my future.
It is a dilemma you must face since ,as you stated before in a previous post,
ICANT writes:
If you do not believe the Bible to be the Word of God I cannot convince you of anything spiritual.
since this presents you with the difficulty of having to show that your argument has merit without the person first agreeing with you. That a person must agree with you first is demonstrated by you saying that they must believe the Bible to be the word of God.
Now if you first convince them of the validity of the Bible as the word of God fine,however, in order to be both logical and honest, in convincing them about the bible you cannot make reference to anything spiritual since this would constitute circular reasoning.
Sidelined I have been preaching for 45 years and I have never convinced anyone of anything. I do not try to convince people because if I convince them they are converted to me.
Then you are saying they are already in agreement with you before you even speak to them? You are preaching to the choir. That is indeed fortunate because then your work is made rather easier.
I state the facts as I know them, I present my evidence for my beliefs. If someone looks at that and is convinced thereby that is fine. If they come to a different conclusion than I did that is fine.
If a person is convinced it is indeed fine. If a person finds another arguement to be better then that is also fine. It is however in everyones interest to examine the evidence offered in light of modern understanding of how both nature works and how science is capable of describing those works.
If you wish to believe that God was the reason behind it that is fine as long as you do not try to explain how he might do that for then you enter into the realm of scientific inquiry.
It is not a badge of pride to be worn that you are ignorant of how the world operates according to science since, if you believe that God is the reason, then you deny yourself knowledge of those inner workings of life and the beauty that is revealed.
If you have read the Bible from cover to cover and come to the conclusion it is a lie so be it.
I have not read it cover to cover. However I have witnessed that the bible does not change people in any real way other than it gives those that were looking for support of numbers and companionship or involvement a focus and an audience.
There is nothing wrong in that, however, I do not see that there is anything inherently supernatural in the Bible and indeed there is much that is just plain incorrect.
I do not need to read the Bible from cover to cover to note that only people implement either good or evil {in the relative state of those terms} and that the Bible {or Koran or other holy texts} tends to be an authoritarian script from which to launch power struggles of both singular and national scope.
Just don't expect me to come to the same conclusion.
I never would expect that from you as I do agree that democracy is a great achievement that is worth keeping. You are an adult and from my point of view you waste much of your time in the support of these but I also know that in the course of long life that we are so much more than these dusty records of past violent kings and dubious prophets and that in the real world we occupy we care deeply for the welfare of one another regardless of the disagreements.
So you see I may believe a lie and end up in Hell because my ancestors failed to do their job properly
I simply think that the greatest likelihood is that none of the Bible's supernatural aspects are other than embellishments in order to keep interest in things that would otherwise be lost to the passing of the generations.
In that case there is neither heaven nor hell nor God nor Satan, just human beings trying to make sense in short lives of that which they find themselves in. To quote a great man...
I was born not knowing and have had only a little time to change that here and there.
R.P. Feynman

This message is a reply to:
 Message 292 by ICANT, posted 01-15-2008 7:48 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 296 by ICANT, posted 01-16-2008 3:48 PM sidelined has replied

ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 296 of 301 (449087)
01-16-2008 3:48 PM
Reply to: Message 295 by sidelined
01-16-2008 10:33 AM


Re: Re-Competely Human
Hi sidelined,
sidelined writes:
I have witnessed that the bible does not change people in any real way
I don't know what you mean by any real way.
But I do not doubt your word.
I have seen drunkards who got drunk on the way home on Friday night spending most of the pay check if not all of it at the bar, Who then went home and beat the wife and kids for no reason upon meeting my friend Jesus do a 180 degree turn.
Become a sober productive citizen. Who loved their wives and kids and never returned to the old way.
I have seen drug addicts do the same.
I have seen families being torn apart meet my friend Jesus and be able not only to survive but to have abundant life here on earth.
I could go on and on with the changes I have seen in people in the last 50 years all because of my friend Jesus.
Without God and Jesus in these peoples lives where would they be today?
Maybe I am wrong, maybe there is no God but if I knew for a fact God did not exist and I could go back and do it all over again I would not change a thing.
Look at how much happiness and joy I was able to see because people chose to believe in God and His Son.
Have fun,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 295 by sidelined, posted 01-16-2008 10:33 AM sidelined has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 297 by sidelined, posted 01-16-2008 4:15 PM ICANT has replied

sidelined
Member (Idle past 5908 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 297 of 301 (449094)
01-16-2008 4:15 PM
Reply to: Message 296 by ICANT
01-16-2008 3:48 PM


Re: Re-Competely Human
ICANT
I have seen drunkards who got drunk on the way home on Friday night spending most of the pay check if not all of it at the bar, Who then went home and beat the wife and kids for no reason upon meeting my friend Jesus do a 180 degree turn.
I have also seen people get off of drugs and drink and abuse give it up without needing Jesus or any other faith based support as well. SO what would be the common denominator between these two sets of people who changed their lives around? I think it simply is a matter of them making the choice to do so and following through.
This argument holds no more water than the old chestnut that there are no atheists in foxholes my friend.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 296 by ICANT, posted 01-16-2008 3:48 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 299 by ICANT, posted 01-16-2008 10:46 PM sidelined has not replied

pelican
Member (Idle past 4986 days)
Posts: 781
From: australia
Joined: 05-27-2007


Message 298 of 301 (449106)
01-16-2008 4:58 PM
Reply to: Message 294 by Phat
01-16-2008 9:36 AM


Re: Re-Competely Human
Basically, we human's are not good enough for god. Not bad enough for satan and we are not good enough for ourselves. Is this what being human means?
Is life meant to be one of struggling to become someone else or aspiring to become a 'better' person to meet some unclear specifications? It's a crazy world!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 294 by Phat, posted 01-16-2008 9:36 AM Phat has not replied

ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 299 of 301 (449169)
01-16-2008 10:46 PM
Reply to: Message 297 by sidelined
01-16-2008 4:15 PM


Re: Re-Competely Human
Hi sidelined,
sidelined writes:
I have also seen people get off of drugs and drink and abuse give it up without needing Jesus or any other faith based support as well.
Yes sidelined I have seen many of those also. I also know that the success rate of those that never go back is around 30%.
With the ones I know it is 100% success rate, never take one drop of strong drink, not one fix, never raise the hand to strike the wife again.
The volume has been low but the success rate has been perfect.

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 297 by sidelined, posted 01-16-2008 4:15 PM sidelined has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 300 by arachnophilia, posted 01-17-2008 2:57 AM ICANT has not replied

arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1344 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 300 of 301 (449195)
01-17-2008 2:57 AM
Reply to: Message 299 by ICANT
01-16-2008 10:46 PM


Re: Re-Competely Human
check the stats on getting sober and staying sober cold turkey v. w/ god (and 12 steps). you'll find both hover around 5%.
The volume has been low but the success rate has been perfect.
i flipped a coin twice, and it came up heads both times! therefor the probability or a coin landing heads-up is 100% ...you need larger sample sizes to make a test valid.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 299 by ICANT, posted 01-16-2008 10:46 PM ICANT has not replied

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