Why Would a Loving God Create Hell?

Hi Phat,What you say is true and I wouldn't seek to deny that. I am no prude when it comes to violence in the media, but the violence in movies and games is fictional. Even when the fiction is based on reality, it is usually handled a little more sensitively than Tal's attempt to use a presumably true story of a man's death to prove a trivial point. Context matters.Regarding the OP, I find it more troubling that God continues to countenance the existence of Hell, than that he should have created it. If Hell exists, then there are millions of people suffering unimaginable torment as we speak. This situation has lasted a long time and will continue for eternity. For all this time, God, who supposedly loves us, has seen all this and done nothing. Maybe he thinks this is proper, but I couldn't possibly imagine how such callousness in the face of suffering could be morally justifiable. Nothing could justify such cruelty.
Not even the just are excused the suffering. My mother is a Christian. Let us suppose that she leads a good life and goes to heaven. I, for whatever reason, do not get to join Club Paradise and I am consigned to Hell. My poor old Mum must now endure eternity, knowing that her first-born is enduring the eternal fires, a fact which will rather take the shine off heavenly existence I suspect.
I find the whole concept of Hell deeply offensive. Too often it has been used as a stick, with which to beat people into behaving and believing.

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Mutate and Survive

Hi Granny, You can suppose that a good life will get someone into heaven all you want it will not happen.You can not be good enough to go to heaven. You can not buy your way into heaven.I pointed out in Message 102 God has offered you and everyone that has ever walked upon the face of the earth a full pardon.Those millions you are talking about who are suffering in hell refused to receive that pardon.God makes the rules. He told the first man if you eat you die. Every since that time the death rate has been 100% almost there was 2 gentlemen that have not died yet. Enoch and Elijah.God says if you believe on my Son you will receive eternal life.
That is the pardon he offered to mankind.
All man has to do is believe and receive. As far as your mother if she makes it to heaven, after the Great White Throne judgment when you receive your final sentence, providing you continue to refuse God's pardon, God will wipe away the tears and you will be remembered no more.

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"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

That is all anyone can be expected to do.Don't worry, no one is born damned and you don't have to earn your way into heaven. All that crap is just stuff Christian marketers use to keep the money coming in and the flocks in line.You don't even have to believe in God, you are not damned; Christian, Jew, Muslim, Satanist, Taoist, Hindu, Buddhist, all will be welcomed in heaven.Just try to do the best you can.

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Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

Hello ICANT, That isn't really the point. I was making an example about someone in heaven missing their relative who is in hell. How they get to heaven is irrelevant to the point being made. Two things here. How insane would I have to be to refuse God's pardon in those circumstances? I reject God partly because there is no evidence, partly because I find his antics repugnant. If I find myself in the afterlife, suffering in hell, and I'm then offered a divine pardon, of course I'll take it, however immoral it might be. After all, I now have all the evidence I could ever want and I would do anything to escape hell. Unfortunately the moral aspect of hell is unchanged. This offer amounts to "agree with me or I'll torture you until you do". It is no more than a threat of violence, if I fail to agree with God's terrible behaviour. It is immoral.Secondly, if God is cruel enough to send me to hell for failing to bow to his threats of violence, he will wipe the memory of his crimes from everyones memory? That is even more sick and unethical. His crime is no less for having wiped away the memory of it.

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Mutate and Survive

Jar, that is the best single piece of advice that anyone can offer, be they Christian, atheist or otherwise. If you look forward to a heaven full of virtuous heathens, then I may not believe it myself, but I wish you good luck with it.

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Mutate and Survive

It's the only position that makes any sense. The God that so many Christians try to peddle is so evil and petty that I cannot imagine anyone tolerating her, certainly nothing anyone could love. The idea of a God that creates someone who is saved if they will jerk his finger like the one ICANT created is so evil that I cannot imagine such a picayune bling-bling pimp daddy creating this universe.The God ICANT and Buz and so many others create and peddle though IS economically valid and as profitable as snakeoil.

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Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

Grace2u, So if it is a presupposition of the entirity of Christendom that the Tetragrammaton is a good God then that would make this perception man made. Evidenced? Presupposed? Man made? The idea of logic is tangible and real but however the idea of God is imaginative. If you assume that the Tetragrammaton is "a real God" but, frankly, the Tetragrammaton seems imaginative.

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Thank you

I once spent an interesting morning chatting with two Mormons, at the home of some friends who were practicing Wiccans (you should have seen the Mormon chaps faces when my friends suggested that, since we had started with a Mormon prayer, we should end with a Wiccan blessing!).
We were told that if we refused to accept the Church of LDS's, we would unfortunately be damned. I brought up the problem of the virtuous heathen, using the example of a man who lived his whole life in Mecca, and thus had never heard of Mormonism. What would his fate be? I was told that the heathen would be granted the opportunity to change his mind when he arrived in the afterlife. If he chose Mormonism then, he would be saved.
Now this hardly seems fair to me. I know all about Mormonism, so I must make my decision in the here and now, with no evidence to guide me. The lucky heathen however, gets to make his judgment right there in the afterlife, where he now has a good idea that Mormonism is true. Of course he will accept it under those circumstances.
Furthermore, this kind of thinking suggests that when evangelical Mormons spread the knowledge of their creed, all they are doing is giving more people an opportunity to refuse the church in this life, thus damning them. The Mormons would be better off keeping their faith a secret, so that more people would be offered the more attractive choice after they die.
ICANT's bargain seems similar to this, only with added torture.

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Mutate and Survive

Yeah, that is a common marketing ploy. Very sad.In the words of a priest and friend, "Hell? Oh hell, fuggitabutit!"If there is a hell I imagine it is more like remedial class in humanity, a chance for those who tried to sell exclusivity to learn how silly they were.

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Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

quote:

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God says if you believe on my Son you will receive eternal life.
That is the pardon he offered to mankind.
All man has to do is believe and receive.

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ICANT stop for a moment and think abstractly.Why would the God of the material universe require you to "believe on [the] Son" to receive eternal life?This alleged God requires an individual to believe this however the evidence is flimsy, speculative, questionable and even conflicting. Why would this God (who created the material universe) remain so coy, hidden and aloof? If an omnipotent God wanted us to know his existence he could do so without question.Look at the gospels that lay out this notion. We don't have the autographs, they demonstratively have redactions, they show evidence of using a common source, and the authors and their credibility are largely unknown. I can think of many ways God could make the gospels undeniable from God - such as making the originals incorruptible like allegedly was done with the clothes and sandals of the Hebrew's during the Exodus.Here is the point, chain letters and Confidence men require this sort of "faith" based on incomplete, questionable, non-verifiable evidence so why would God use the same methods employed by chain letters and con men?

Hi Granny, Let me see if I can explain the problem with this statement.The first man disobeyed God and ate the fruit that he was told not to eat. The fruit of the tree of good and evil.Because of this disobedience all of his descendents were sentenced to the lake of fire.At that point all mankind was lost and on the road to the lake of fire and God had nothing to do with it. All a person has to do to go to the lake of fire is to be born, live and die.God did not like the results of this so He had to come up with a plan whereby His justice could be satisfied and man could be redeemed from the lake of fire. This plan was decided upon before God made man.He decided He would allow His only begotten Son to come and die on the cross of calvary so man could be redeemed from the lake of fire.
When He saw the suffering of His Son on the Cross He was satisfied and the debt was paid in full.God then offers you a full pardon and all you have to do is believe in His Son and trust Him for eternal life or heaven as you put it.Every person that reaches the point in life as the first man and woman did to know good from evil is responsible for their eternal destiny.Anyone of those who will not ask for and receive the pardon offered will spend eternity in the lake of fire.So blame God if you want, you could blame the first man, you can even blame the devil, shucks you can even blame the church and christianity. But if you want to know who is to blame just look in a mirror.Have fun,

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"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

Hi iceage, Good question. I got a better one.Why would the God of the material universe allow His Son to come and suffer the humilation of being striped naked hung on a cross to die, spit upon laughed at, and seperated from Him for the space of three hours to satisfy His justice for the sin debt of mankind such as we are. Unthankful, unholy, unbelieving, wretched, sinful poor excuses for human beings?I guess the answer would have to be the same for both questions.This is not a democracy it is a dictatorship.God created the heaven and the earth and everything in it. I know you disagree.This game of life we are playing is God's game. God makes the rules. I know you disagree.So God made a rule you can accept the sacrifice of His Son for your sins by receiving the pardon offered or spend eternity in the lake of fire. I know you disagree.iceage I tell you what when you meet God face to face why don't you ask Him in person.I know you say but there is no God. I want to see you convince God of that when you do meet Him face to face.You have fun now,

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"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

They seem to me to be entirely different questions. I can accept that reality is a dictatorship and I don't disagree that God created the earth - heaven/hell is another story as we have no evidence of heaven/hell. Actually I don't disagree.... This of course avoids my question and is a scare tactic similar to the one used in chain letters - "boy you will be sorry if you don't comply".Why would God hide? And why would God place incomplete and questionable evidence in front of us and then hinge the decision on heaven or hell based on that uninformed decision. Why would God use the exact same formula that chain letters and con men use? This is the question you have avoided answering.

Hi iceage,I am going to describe a hypothetical scenario and I would like for you to analyze it for me please.I am having a hard time understanding the thought process around here on EvC.You have committed murder.
You have been convicted.
You have been sentenced to die in the gas chamber.
It has been 20 years since conviction.
All appeals have run out.
You have your last meal.
The morning the sentence is to be carried out they come for you.
All preparations are made to carry out the sentence.
You are strapped to the table.
The phone rings.
The warden answers and says yes sir, yes sir, yes sir.
He turns to you and says the President of the United States is offering you a full pardon, will you accept it?
You must give and answer.If you answer yes they will unstrap you and you can walk out a free man.
If you answer no the sentence will be carried out.What is your answer?Now I want you to tell me what your thoughts is towards the President.If you would answer these two questions truthfully It would help me to understand the thought process a little better and help me to better express my views here at EvC.Have fun,

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"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

ICANT,
Nowhere in your post do you address my point. I am well aware of the story of the fall of man, thank you. All it amounts to is God saying "Eating this fruit is wrong. Dare to disobey and it's lake of fire time.", which strikes me as grossly disproportionate. People have found it within themselves to forgive worse crimes. The idea that God is so callous that he cannot forgive this slight affront, even whilst his children suffer eternal torment, is truly appalling. To claim that he is also loving is absurd. Yes, the concept of original sin. More plumbing the depths of evil. If you wronged me and I responded by punishing your children, how would you feel? Would you consider that just? I am no more responsible for Adam's actions than I am responsible for Britain's former slave trade. This credo is hateful, cruel and offensive beyond belief. So if all this was decided before Adam and Eve ever tasted that fruit, why did God go through with it? Why not simply put the fruit out of their reach and save us all from the damn fire? What a waste of time. Not only does God countenance suffering, but he deliberately planned for it, encouraged it and chose not to prevent it. If that fits your definition of "loving" you need a new dictionary.
Face facts ICANT; your god is an evil monster. He makes me glad I'm an atheist.

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Mutate and Survive