Honour Amongst Christians

By honour, I mean "that which tries to help those less-fortunate and looks for nothing in return".Is Christianity honourable?
The part about helping the poor and your neighbours, yes.
The part about joining the religion (accepting Jesus Christ as your personal saviour or otherwise) in order to gain salvation... no.
And, one can help others without joining the religion.To me it would be more honourable to help others and not join Christianity (therefore not asking for personal salvation in return).If I find it honourable to receive a gift only when it's not asked for, and Christianity insists that I ask for God's forgiveness in order to receive salvation... am I doomed to Hell for trying to be honourable? Does this mean God does not want people to lead honourable lives?Is there any religion that does not give a reward for joining and focuses more on being honourable?Perhaps for Faith and Belief or Miscellaneous Topics

Sorry, didn't mean for it to come off like that. Let's look at what I said:

quote:

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Is Christianity honourable?
The part about helping the poor and your neighbours, yes.
The part about joining the religion (accepting Jesus Christ as your personal saviour or otherwise) in order to gain salvation... no.
And, one can help others without joining the religion.

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It doesn't imply that Christians help people only to get into heaven. It doesn't even imply that Christians help people out of any selfish intent. In fact, it does imply the opposite, that Christians certainly do help people just because it's nice to help people.What it does imply (and say) is that there's an additional attachment. That if one becomes a Christian (in whatever way is needed), one will gain personal salvation. This no longer has anything to do with helping anyone out.The point is, why does one need to declare oneself to be "Christian", or as is more popular "accept Jesus Christ as your personal saviour" in order to receive the gift of salvation?Why must one reach out and ask for this gift in order to receive it?My point is that it's more honourable to receive a gift when you don't ask for it, when you don't do anything special for it, when you don't try to identify yourself.My point is that it's more honourable to let yourself be judged by whoever will do the judging than to jump out beforehand and request salvation from whoever can grant such.The point about helping people was only in there to show this can certainly be done without being in the religion. Not because it's required for salvation (although I acknowledge that some people think it is necessary). For this arguement, it is superfluous. Agreed. So why must one become a Christian? Why must one proclaim belief in God or Jesus? What's wrong with focusing on bettering your heart and motives without the extraneous identification of being "with Christ"? Why not just do those things with no assurance, or even a request of getting something back?I thought the point of Christianity was that God will forgive us all and give us all salvation... all we have to do is ask for it. Am I wrong? My point is... I find it personally dishonourable to ask for such a magnificent gift. I feel that if God is giving these gifts out, He can give them to whoever he'd like. If I'm one he'd like to give it to, then great. If not, I'm sorry I wasn't good enough. Am I doomed to hell because of the way I am? Poor form, bringing up an arguement that doesn't exist and finishing with slamming another religion.

I'm a little confused with regards to your post. I don't see what you're trying to say. Can you try again, maybe? I don't have a person who is my "personal example" for doing good things. Why would you think I had one? I do good things because I've decided it's better to try and help people than to hurt them. And yes, I would tell that to my neighbours (or anyone else) if they asked me about such motives. I don't honour anyone, or do anything in anyone's honour. So I don't really understand what you're asking here. I do good things because I've decided that helping people is better than hurting them. No. I don't really trouble myself with riches, it adds too much unrequired stress. I certainly couldn't care less about how someone else got their riches. Unless, of course, they were hurting others, then I'd do what I could to prevent that. That's a very good question. Why is it unpleasant to be with Christ? I certainly haven't said it was, I'm just saying that proclaiming any relationship with Christ is superfluous to being a good person, and a dishonourable way to try and gain anything. Very much so. Can you identify a problem somewhere? I'd like to get help from wherever possible. But if this discussion causes you discomfort, I'm not going to request that you remain.I'm not really asking about what's "good" or why I should do good things. I'm asking about if I'm doomed to Hell because I don't think it would be good for me to ask a God for the gift of personal salvation.

I agree, and I've been trying to keep them seperate. Maybe the way I've worded things wasn't ideal.But, I see three things:1. Doing good things for others
2. Seeking forgiveness for one's own wrongs
3. Receiving the gift of eternal salvation from GodOr are you saying that seeking forgiveness for our own wrongs is the same as receiving the gift of salvation?My personal problem is that "seeking forgiveness for my wrong's" isn't really something I do. If I do something wrong, I atone for it by making sure I don't do it again, and helping those I've wronged. I don't ever seek forgiveness for anything. I don't really care if anyone else forgives me or not. I want to try to do the best I can. If someone is unwilling to forgive me for a mistake I've made, that doesn't have any effect on my goal of doing the best I can. I certainly appreciate it if someone does forgive me, but it's nothing I seek out. To me, I don't really see "being forgiven" as important, or really meaning anything. To me, what's important is to learn from our mistakes and improve ourselves.Sometimes asking someone for forgiveness can show to them that you are sorry for what you did, and want to try to make things better, and this can help them feel better. In this sense I see the benefit and importance of asking forgiveness. But this is not seeking forgiveness for one's own sake, it's doing it to help the other person recover from being wronged.I agree with you that I also think it's my duty to forgive even if an offender is not repentant. But this doesn't change the fact that I don't personally seek forgiveness.So to me there is no seeking of forgiveness. Only receiving a gift of salvation (if granted). And I find it wrong to seek or request for such a gift.

I like your list, and it's very similar (if not exact) to what I tend to strive for. I admire the Christianity you are familiar with, and I would feel honoured to receive any gift (let alone one as big as salvation) from any God promoting such virtues.Uh, sorry that sounds so... formal. I don't think you and I have many differences surrounding this issue. But your input and advice is always welcome. From here I'd go on to discuss the liklyhood of salvation's existance and how such a liklyhood (whatever it is) doesn't have any effect on the first two points. But to keep this thread focused on topic, I'll stay away from that and keep with the assumption that salvation is a part of reality.

I like that. I certainly can, and will, apologize to God for any wrongs I do to Him (even if those wrongs are simply vicariously to Him through me doing it to other people or whatever) and seek to improve the gift of life He's seen fit to give me. If God always gives the gift of salvation to those who are truly sorry for their mistakes, then I understand how it's not really "seeking salvation".Again, this is under the assumptions that God exists, that He gave us life and that He has salvation to give out. The next thing to discuss is whether or not these assumptions hold any weight. And about how these things being true or not should have no effect on how we forgive or live, but that's more for another thread.

Agreed. I don't think anything I've said goes against this option. I've just been starting with the dishonour of pleading/seeking for salvation (or any gift). If that cannot be recognized, I don't see any hope for recognizing the honour in improving Hell.

As far as you and brennakimi and likely others are concerned, I thought we had reached an agreement on the issue. In which case, what would you like to move on to? I'm under the impression that coming to an understanding on this issue, and leaving the next topic for another thread is "moving on". No?

Not at all. Doing nice things has nothing to do with this. Let's stop talking about it all together.All I'm saying is that God can grant salvation. And I've heard that some people believe God gives the gift of salvation to those who ask for it. Yet will not give it to anyone who does not ask for it.To me, a gift is honourable if you don't ask for it and someone still gives it to you. Otherwise (if you asked for it) you certainly may still deserve it, and it can still be good, but it's not honourable any longer.Why is salvation only dispensed to those who ask? Where is the honour in that? Does God not care about honour?Others have said that I'm incorrect in assuming that you have to ask in order to obtain salvation. I think this is much more honourable. I don't understand. At the end of the sentence you seem to put importance on being "out there" and "living it's dictates" (which I assume to basically mean being a good person). And that's exactly what I'm saying, the important thing is to be out there, trying your best at being a good person. You seem to agree that this is better than spending all one's time in the Bible.This is part of the same point I'm trying to make. Claiming to be a Christian or professing belief in God and Jesus, to me, is "spending one's time in the Bible" and not being out there, trying to improve oneself and others in this world.Why should we waste time believing in God or Jesus? Their existance will stand fine on it's own. Shouldn't we be focusing our efforts on improving oneself and others in this world? No. I mean I would rather get a gift for being who I am rather than because I asked for it. In fact, if I got a gift for the sole reason that I asked for it, the gift would mean nothing, and be worthless, whatever it was. If there is a requirement that the gift must be asked for in order to be received, I see no honour or usefulness to the gift. In fact, it's no longer a gift, but a trade.Let's try not to confuse honourable with good.It is good to receive a gift you didn't ask for.
It is good to receive a gift you did ask for.Only one is honourable.

Oh, sorry, I didn't know I had two topics Yes, of course. If there's anything anyone thinks pertains to the subject(s) at all then I hope they'ed post their thoughts. Variety and different approaches are extremely encouraged.I didn't mean to give such a strict sense to this thread. I even like offshoots and side-topics (as long as they're related somehow). It's generally there where I get my ideas of what to talk about another day.

Came up with helping is better than hurting all by myself? I understood it on my own, but certainly didn't come up with it. I didn't really think it was all that difficult of a subject, though. I mean, anyone who's ever been around a baby knows that crying is bad and laughing is good. Seems pretty obvious to me. And I'm positive I wasn't the first to figure this out. It seems to have been known since the beginning of recorded history. And likely since the beginning of social animals, let alone mammals, or even humans. That puts me around the billionth or so generation (let alone being) to come up with this. It's hardly anything new.What does this have to do with the lack of honour in asking for salvation? Oh, I see. I thought those specific people you mentioned were supposed to be other people I'd tell about my motives if they asked. I barely know who they are, other than the names sounded familiar from pop culture, maybe? But still I said I'd do what I could to stop bad methods. I'm not under any naive sense that I'm capable of stopping all bad things. Why would you think that?And again, what does this have to do with salvation or honour? Haphazard rambling? I'm not rambling at all, and I'm certainly being very serious about this subject. If there's something you don't understand, just ask. If you think I'm not saying anything, then what are you replying to?

Let's see... the "it" you'd rather not get into is eternal life and all the issues attached, right? Yes, I agree that's a mess unto itself.And the "whole thing right now" you don't know what to do with is... this current life? I think?
Yeah, you, me, and everyone else here. Some have already decided that what they think is The Truth, that seems to make it easy to deal with. Others search. Constantly. I find that tiresome. I tend to stick with a bit of hobby-like curiosity (this forum) coupled with a dose of "does it really matter? I still have to pay my bills today..."One of my favourite pieces of advice is to keep your chin up.1. It also keeps your eyes up, and all your other senses alert.
2. With your senses alert, you are best prepared to protect yourself.
3. You can't help anyone else if you're dead, so protecting yourself has a certain high level of priority.
4. Having your senses ready will also help you learn about anyone else you can help.
5. In an emotional sense, the healthy attitude implied has a bit of a "rough around the edges" feel to it. I like it.
6. It's good for posture.Oh gee... and just a few posts ago I mentioned I wasn't haphazzardly rambling, oh well

I have a hard time debating any philosophical-type issues with you. I don't tend to find much I don't agree with, or even all that much I'm able to add. I'm certainly on the same train as this. That was the conclusion of my own thought-exercise as well. Good point. And not only from the posts I see here at EvC. Also in non-digital life. Although people tend to be much less confrontational about it in person (in my experience, anyway). Granted, my experience does not include those geographical areas known for confrontational religion.

I don't think I'd be too much help then, sorry. I know a bit about what it says, but I don't have any of those answers either. Especially if it's in context of the Christian religion. If any of those questions are about practical life, without mention of any sort of religion, I may have some input. But likely still no answers. These questions tend to be of the important kind. The kind of where if there were answers, everyone would know about it rather quickly. Good. Mind if I cheat off your answers when you make progress?

Oh, no. I don't have a problem with getting to know anyone. I'd consider it kind of rude not to, even. I just have a problem with anyone requiring people to ask for help before it's given. But it seems like you don't think it's like that anyway. Being honourable isn't my highest priority, no. But it's up there. IF God OR Jesus OR Zeus OR an imaginary pixie ever gave me the opportunity to meet with them, it would not be honourable to avoid them. And I wouldn't. No, I'd consider this rude.
Well, what do you mean by "symbolically"? How can I symbolically meet anyone "face to face"? It kinda sounds like an oxymoron. Good advice.