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Understanding through Discussion


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Author Topic:   Honour Amongst Christians
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 16 of 308 (449568)
01-18-2008 11:36 AM
Reply to: Message 14 by Stile
01-18-2008 11:33 AM


Re: Understood
The next thing to discuss is whether or not these assumptions hold any weight. And about how these things being true or not should have no effect on how we forgive or live, but that's more for another thread.
Why? We are at about 15 posts. Could we not simply move on?

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by Stile, posted 01-18-2008 11:33 AM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by Stile, posted 01-18-2008 11:41 AM jar has replied

Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


Message 17 of 308 (449569)
01-18-2008 11:37 AM
Reply to: Message 13 by ringo
01-18-2008 11:24 AM


Ringo writes:
The honourable approach would be to volunteer to go to Hell. You'd be standing by your brother, loving your neighbour as yourself, trying to make Hell a better place.
Agreed. I don't think anything I've said goes against this option. I've just been starting with the dishonour of pleading/seeking for salvation (or any gift). If that cannot be recognized, I don't see any hope for recognizing the honour in improving Hell.

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 Message 13 by ringo, posted 01-18-2008 11:24 AM ringo has not replied

Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


Message 18 of 308 (449570)
01-18-2008 11:41 AM
Reply to: Message 16 by jar
01-18-2008 11:36 AM


Re: Understood
jar writes:
Why? We are at about 15 posts. Could we not simply move on?
As far as you and brennakimi and likely others are concerned, I thought we had reached an agreement on the issue. In which case, what would you like to move on to? I'm under the impression that coming to an understanding on this issue, and leaving the next topic for another thread is "moving on". No?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by jar, posted 01-18-2008 11:36 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by jar, posted 01-18-2008 11:51 AM Stile has replied

macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3927 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 19 of 308 (449571)
01-18-2008 11:46 AM
Reply to: Message 14 by Stile
01-18-2008 11:33 AM


Re: Understood
Again, this is under the assumptions that God exists, that He gave us life and that He has salvation to give out.
it's not a particularly weighty assumption. apologizing to the universe for upsetting the balance is just as good, as far as i'm concerned.
these things being true or not should have no effect on how we forgive
of course not.
or live
but the whole eternal life thing is another issue entirely. regular life is one thing and should certainly not be revoked on a whim. but eternal life, if existant, has other issues attached. i'd rather not go into it, mostly because i just don't know what to do with this whole thing right now.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by Stile, posted 01-18-2008 11:33 AM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by Stile, posted 01-18-2008 4:19 PM macaroniandcheese has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 20 of 308 (449574)
01-18-2008 11:51 AM
Reply to: Message 18 by Stile
01-18-2008 11:41 AM


Re: Understood
Since we are only at the early post count of this thread, could we go on to address the next topic you mentioned in this thread?

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by Stile, posted 01-18-2008 11:41 AM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 23 by Stile, posted 01-18-2008 1:28 PM jar has replied

ThreeDogs
Member (Idle past 5850 days)
Posts: 77
From: noli me calcare
Joined: 01-08-2008


Message 21 of 308 (449587)
01-18-2008 12:28 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by Stile
01-18-2008 9:14 AM


Re: What are we talking about?
quote:
I don't have a person who is my "personal example" for doing good things. Why would you think I had one? I do good things because I've decided it's better to try and help people than to hurt them.
Then you came up with this all by yourself and never had an example for doing the same thing, because until you, there never was anyone who did what you do? I thought so!
quote:
No. I don't really trouble myself with riches, it adds too much unrequired stress. I certainly couldn't care less about how someone else got their riches. Unless, of course, they were hurting others, then I'd do what I could to prevent that.
I specifically asked you about specific people and if you know how they gained their wealth. I'm looking forward to the implementation of your methods to stop them. Heck, I'll even vote for you.
quote:
I'd like to get help from wherever possible. But if this discussion causes you discomfort, I'm not going to request that you remain.
Haphazard ramblings are painful. I couldn't even tell you what I'm looking for from you, because you are not saying anything.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by Stile, posted 01-18-2008 9:14 AM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
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Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


Message 22 of 308 (449606)
01-18-2008 1:22 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by Hyroglyphx
01-18-2008 11:35 AM


Re: Understanding the basics
Nemesis Juggernaut writes:
It sounds as if you are equivocating doing nice things with achieving salvation.
Not at all. Doing nice things has nothing to do with this. Let's stop talking about it all together.
All I'm saying is that God can grant salvation. And I've heard that some people believe God gives the gift of salvation to those who ask for it. Yet will not give it to anyone who does not ask for it.
To me, a gift is honourable if you don't ask for it and someone still gives it to you. Otherwise (if you asked for it) you certainly may still deserve it, and it can still be good, but it's not honourable any longer.
Why is salvation only dispensed to those who ask? Where is the honour in that? Does God not care about honour?
Others have said that I'm incorrect in assuming that you have to ask in order to obtain salvation. I think this is much more honourable.
Some say that by doing these things (becoming a Christian, professing belief in God and Jesus), you begin to learn who God is a much more powerful and meaningful way than someone who spends all their time in the Bible, and no time out there living its dictates.
I don't understand. At the end of the sentence you seem to put importance on being "out there" and "living it's dictates" (which I assume to basically mean being a good person). And that's exactly what I'm saying, the important thing is to be out there, trying your best at being a good person. You seem to agree that this is better than spending all one's time in the Bible.
This is part of the same point I'm trying to make. Claiming to be a Christian or professing belief in God and Jesus, to me, is "spending one's time in the Bible" and not being out there, trying to improve oneself and others in this world.
Why should we waste time believing in God or Jesus? Their existance will stand fine on it's own. Shouldn't we be focusing our efforts on improving oneself and others in this world?
Or is it that you feel like one's pride is being challenged, as if you have to debase yourself in order to be saved? Like you are begging for your life? Is that what you mean?
No. I mean I would rather get a gift for being who I am rather than because I asked for it. In fact, if I got a gift for the sole reason that I asked for it, the gift would mean nothing, and be worthless, whatever it was. If there is a requirement that the gift must be asked for in order to be received, I see no honour or usefulness to the gift. In fact, it's no longer a gift, but a trade.
Let's try not to confuse honourable with good.
It is good to receive a gift you didn't ask for.
It is good to receive a gift you did ask for.
Only one is honourable.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by Hyroglyphx, posted 01-18-2008 11:35 AM Hyroglyphx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by ICANT, posted 01-18-2008 8:17 PM Stile has replied
 Message 34 by Hyroglyphx, posted 01-18-2008 10:01 PM Stile has replied
 Message 47 by iano, posted 01-21-2008 12:15 PM Stile has replied

Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


Message 23 of 308 (449609)
01-18-2008 1:28 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by jar
01-18-2008 11:51 AM


Re: Understood
Oh, sorry, I didn't know I had two topics
Yes, of course. If there's anything anyone thinks pertains to the subject(s) at all then I hope they'ed post their thoughts. Variety and different approaches are extremely encouraged.
I didn't mean to give such a strict sense to this thread. I even like offshoots and side-topics (as long as they're related somehow). It's generally there where I get my ideas of what to talk about another day.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by jar, posted 01-18-2008 11:51 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by jar, posted 01-18-2008 4:14 PM Stile has replied

Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


Message 24 of 308 (449614)
01-18-2008 1:54 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by ThreeDogs
01-18-2008 12:28 PM


You give me too much credit, sir
ThreeDogs writes:
Stile writes:
I don't have a person who is my "personal example" for doing good things. Why would you think I had one? I do good things because I've decided it's better to try and help people than to hurt them.
Then you came up with this all by yourself and never had an example for doing the same thing, because until you, there never was anyone who did what you do? I thought so!
Came up with helping is better than hurting all by myself? I understood it on my own, but certainly didn't come up with it. I didn't really think it was all that difficult of a subject, though. I mean, anyone who's ever been around a baby knows that crying is bad and laughing is good. Seems pretty obvious to me. And I'm positive I wasn't the first to figure this out. It seems to have been known since the beginning of recorded history. And likely since the beginning of social animals, let alone mammals, or even humans. That puts me around the billionth or so generation (let alone being) to come up with this. It's hardly anything new.
What does this have to do with the lack of honour in asking for salvation?
I specifically asked you about specific people and if you know how they gained their wealth. I'm looking forward to the implementation of your methods to stop them. Heck, I'll even vote for you.
Oh, I see. I thought those specific people you mentioned were supposed to be other people I'd tell about my motives if they asked. I barely know who they are, other than the names sounded familiar from pop culture, maybe? But still I said I'd do what I could to stop bad methods. I'm not under any naive sense that I'm capable of stopping all bad things. Why would you think that?
And again, what does this have to do with salvation or honour?
Haphazard ramblings are painful. I couldn't even tell you what I'm looking for from you, because you are not saying anything.
Haphazard rambling? I'm not rambling at all, and I'm certainly being very serious about this subject. If there's something you don't understand, just ask. If you think I'm not saying anything, then what are you replying to?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by ThreeDogs, posted 01-18-2008 12:28 PM ThreeDogs has not replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 25 of 308 (449657)
01-18-2008 4:14 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by Stile
01-18-2008 1:28 PM


Next up.
The next thing to discuss is whether or not these assumptions hold any weight. And about how these things being true or not should have no effect on how we forgive or live, but that's more for another thread.
If you mean salvation by "these things" then I don't see how it could have any effect on how we live or behave except as outlined below. The idea of the membership salvation as taught by many Christian Churches, join OUR club or go to Hell, is pretty silly. The idea of being Born Again as a onetime event, of "being saved" is pretty silly.
In all honesty, no one has a clue whether they are saved or not even if something like an afterlife does happen to exist. We might hope for such a thing, perhaps even hope fervently, but if we are honest we gotta admit we ain't got a clue.
That leaves everyone trying to live as best they can.
And there is nothing wrong with that. It may make some folk uncomfortable to admit they really don't know about life after death, and perhaps some folk can delude themselves into thinking they really do know such stuff.
But they don't.
From posts here at EvC it seems that many Christians, particularly the Biblical Christians, seem to lack internal self control. In those cases it is probably wise to have something they fear as a threat to keep them from running amok and flooding the streets with blood as they imply would happen if that restraining influence was removed.
For such folk an imaginary sky daddy with a big whip and harsh punishments may well serve a purpose.
Edited by jar, : appalin spallin and lost words

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by Stile, posted 01-18-2008 1:28 PM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 28 by Stile, posted 01-18-2008 4:28 PM jar has not replied

Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


Message 26 of 308 (449658)
01-18-2008 4:19 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by macaroniandcheese
01-18-2008 11:46 AM


Could be worse
brennakimi writes:
i'd rather not go into it, mostly because i just don't know what to do with this whole thing right now.
Let's see... the "it" you'd rather not get into is eternal life and all the issues attached, right? Yes, I agree that's a mess unto itself.
And the "whole thing right now" you don't know what to do with is... this current life? I think?
Yeah, you, me, and everyone else here. Some have already decided that what they think is The Truth, that seems to make it easy to deal with. Others search. Constantly. I find that tiresome. I tend to stick with a bit of hobby-like curiosity (this forum) coupled with a dose of "does it really matter? I still have to pay my bills today..."
One of my favourite pieces of advice is to keep your chin up.
1. It also keeps your eyes up, and all your other senses alert.
2. With your senses alert, you are best prepared to protect yourself.
3. You can't help anyone else if you're dead, so protecting yourself has a certain high level of priority.
4. Having your senses ready will also help you learn about anyone else you can help.
5. In an emotional sense, the healthy attitude implied has a bit of a "rough around the edges" feel to it. I like it.
6. It's good for posture.
Oh gee... and just a few posts ago I mentioned I wasn't haphazzardly rambling, oh well

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by macaroniandcheese, posted 01-18-2008 11:46 AM macaroniandcheese has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 27 by macaroniandcheese, posted 01-18-2008 4:26 PM Stile has replied

macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3927 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 27 of 308 (449659)
01-18-2008 4:26 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by Stile
01-18-2008 4:19 PM


Re: Could be worse
And the "whole thing right now" you don't know what to do with is... this current life? I think?
no. god and that baggage. it's very complicated. two years ago, i posted a rant list and not much has changed since then. after being a christian for 21 years, there's not many people who can answer my questions beyond "this is what it says". i know what it says, that's why i'm having problems.
Others search. Constantly. I find that tiresome.
it is. but that's who i am. i'm a searcher.
"does it really matter? I still have to pay my bills today..."
render unto ceasar...
that's the thing though; you have to have a healthy division between what you can manage and what you can't. there are some christians who think that you can't do anything without asking god first if they ought... i'd hate to wash their underwear. we are to be weaned children, not dependant infants.
It's good for posture.
yeah but the bazoingas aren't

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by Stile, posted 01-18-2008 4:19 PM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 38 by Stile, posted 01-21-2008 8:40 AM macaroniandcheese has replied

Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


Message 28 of 308 (449660)
01-18-2008 4:28 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by jar
01-18-2008 4:14 PM


Re: Next up.
I have a hard time debating any philosophical-type issues with you. I don't tend to find much I don't agree with, or even all that much I'm able to add.
jar writes:
In all honesty, no one has a clue whether they are saved or not even if something like an afterlife does happen to exist. We might hope for such a thing, perhaps even hope fervently, but if we are honest we gotta admit we ain't got a clue.
I'm certainly on the same train as this.
That leaves everyone trying to live as best they can.
That was the conclusion of my own thought-exercise as well.
From posts here at EvC it seems that many Christians, particularly the Biblical Christians, seem to lack internal self control. In those cases it is probably wise to have something they fear as a threat to keep them from running amok and flooding the streets with blood as they imply would happen if that restraining influence was removed.
For such folk an imaginary sky daddy with a big whip and harsh punishments may well serve a purpose.
Good point. And not only from the posts I see here at EvC. Also in non-digital life. Although people tend to be much less confrontational about it in person (in my experience, anyway). Granted, my experience does not include those geographical areas known for confrontational religion.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by jar, posted 01-18-2008 4:14 PM jar has not replied

Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 29 of 308 (449662)
01-18-2008 4:39 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by Stile
01-18-2008 8:30 AM


Re: Understanding the basics
Stile writes:
Is Christianity honourable?By honour, I mean "that which tries to help those less-fortunate and looks for nothing in return".
Phat writes:
It can be. I would imagine that each of us does many honorable things and a few less-than-honorable things on a daily basis.
The part about helping the poor and your neighbours, yes.
The part about joining the religion (accepting Jesus Christ as your personal saviour or otherwise) in order to gain salvation... no.
And, one can help others without joining the religion.
Phat writes:
Its not a matter of joining a religion. Its a matter of a daily relationship...through prayer...with Jesus Christ. One may ask "Is This Necessary?" No, but the idea of helping others and trying to be the good guy on our own is in its own way veiled pride.
If I find it honourable to receive a gift only when it's not asked for, and Christianity insists that I ask for God's forgiveness in order to receive salvation... am I doomed to Hell for trying to be honourable?
The gift was given to all regardless of whether we asked for it or not. Of course you don't have to get to know God through Jesus Christ if you honestly believe in your heart that you don't want to make a big show of it...but you may well meet Him anyway.
Stile writes:
Is there any religion that does not give a reward for joining and focuses more on being honourable?
.... so ask yourself what it is that you truly want. Do you want to live as honorably as you possibly can, without all the trappings of exclusivity? If so, there is no one stopping you.
All that I am saying is that you may well meet God in the process whether you sought to meet Him or not. And yes, it is honorable to do good simply for the idea that its the right thing to do and expecting no rewards in the process.
Stile writes:
The point is, why does one need to declare oneself to be "Christian", or as is more popular "accept Jesus Christ as your personal saviour" in order to receive the gift of salvation?
Perhaps a better question would be this: IF God exists and IF Jesus Christ is eternally Gods human incarnation, would it be honorable to avoid meeting Him, should the opportunity arise? In other words, would you climb a tree to avoid having to deal with Him face to face, should the opportunity ever realistically or even symbolically present itself?
Stile writes:
My point is... I find it personally dishonourable to ask for such a magnificent gift. I feel that if God is giving these gifts out, He can give them to whoever he'd like. If I'm one he'd like to give it to, then great. If not, I'm sorry I wasn't good enough. Am I doomed to hell because of the way I am?
In my opinion, no. You seem to have a wonderful outlook on things.
My only point was this:
Don't go out of your way to seek the gift, but don't avoid it if it comes knocking at your door, either.
Edited by Phat, : fixed quote

"All that we call human history--money, poverty, ambition, war, prostitution, classes, empires, slavery--[is] the long terrible story of man trying to find something other than God which will make him happy."--C.S.Lewis
* * * * * * * * * *
“The world has achieved brilliance without wisdom, power without conscience. Ours is a world of nuclear giants and ethical infants.”--General Omar Bradley
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
"The free man owns himself. He can damage himself with either eating or drinking; he can ruin himself with gambling. If he does he is certainly a damn fool, and he might possibly be a damned soul; but if he may not, he is not a free man any more than a dog." -GK Chesterson

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by Stile, posted 01-18-2008 8:30 AM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 30 by jar, posted 01-18-2008 4:46 PM Phat has replied
 Message 39 by Stile, posted 01-21-2008 8:49 AM Phat has not replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 30 of 308 (449664)
01-18-2008 4:46 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by Phat
01-18-2008 4:39 PM


Re: Understanding the basics
Phat writes:
In other words, would you climb a tree to avoid having to deal with Him face to face, should the opportunity ever realistically or even symbolically present itself?
Phat, do you ever read the Bible in context?
Luke 19 in Context writes:
1Jesus entered Jericho and was passing through. 2A man was there by the name of Zacchaeus; he was a chief tax collector and was wealthy. 3He wanted to see who Jesus was, but being a short man he could not, because of the crowd. 4So he ran ahead and climbed a sycamore-fig tree to see him, since Jesus was coming that way.
5When Jesus reached the spot, he looked up and said to him, "Zacchaeus, come down immediately. I must stay at your house today." 6So he came down at once and welcomed him gladly.
7All the people saw this and began to mutter, "He has gone to be the guest of a 'sinner.' "
8But Zacchaeus stood up and said to the Lord, "Look, Lord! Here and now I give half of my possessions to the poor, and if I have cheated anybody out of anything, I will pay back four times the amount."
9Jesus said to him, "Today salvation has come to this house, because this man, too, is a son of Abraham. 10For the Son of Man came to seek and to save what was lost."
The point of that parable is on behavior.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by Phat, posted 01-18-2008 4:39 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 31 by Phat, posted 01-18-2008 4:53 PM jar has replied

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