Why Would a Loving God Create Hell?

Tal Hell life has many stories without a villain in it but if all you expose yourself to is that aspect of human endevour then I suppose that is the end of it. Damn shame though.

ICANT Good point. He sends his only son {not including the sons of God from the old testament} which is in reality God himself according to trinity hypothesis. Then he sacrifices his son {actually himself} through a blod sacrifice.Now exactly how does a blood sacrifice cancel out all the sins that Christians committed when they gave themselves to Christ?Edited by sidelined, : No reason given.

ICANT Not me at all but the Bible makes these statements. However,of course, you will reword this to say that they actually mean the sons of men. Of course there were witnesses to this with evidence to back up the claim to differentiate it from mere imaginings of simple minds that had no clue as to the physics of the world. This just rephrases the purpose of the sacrifice and not the reason for why the sacrifice of blood is able to rectify the sin of Adam. How does a death on Jesus part cause this to be forgiven? In other words what is it about the blood that makes it perform this action?As to your agreement that there are now 3 then how exactly is this a monotheistic religion? I do not think this is at all the case but simply the imagined purpose put in place by superstitious people without a good understanding of the world around them. Since freewill itself has been brought into question through experiments in recent times I think the matter of freewill is completely open to debate and not at all settled. Well since the most likely scenario that I can see based on how I have seen people through the years is that the Christian faith is a politically originated myth blown out of proportion and simply the most popular of 3 so called monotheistic faiths.There is nothing that I can see to warrant any veracity to the claims about jesus or God or much of the biblical writings short of those that make sense as a matter of helping to meld a society into a cohesive unit. There are many cultures and different faiths that also do the same yet differ drastically in the parameters they set to their deities.

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"Logic will get you from A to B. Imagination will take you everywhere."Albert Einstein

ICANT You stated this in response to this statement by myself It seems that you agree with the trinity part but I was stating that you had the problem with the part about God having more than one son and that you would probably say that these were not sons of God but of men which is why I gave the verses from the bible to back it up. SO God bleeds his own self through Jesus to pay for the sins that were transgressed upon himself by that which He created?Add you have no problem with that scenario or logic? No taking a step back and asking... WTF? You have yet to explain How blood somehow has the property of removing "sins" and now you also have to explain the logic of how {1} a resurrection seems to be likely and how,{2} the resurrection needs blood in order to make it possible.You still cannot see how this sounds no different than a leader of some remote primitive tribe saying to me that he can raise the dead or curse me from afar or bring famine upon my family? It is primitive superstition and the real world does not work that way. You don't have victory over the grave. You shall enter it just the same as all of all us do. And hell is not real never existed, was a scare tactic proposed by primitive men to cower other primitive men of just a little less brain power. I cannot imagine what possible flight of fancy allows grown people to buy into such drivel nor has any evidence other than claims by ancient texts written by men ever been produced to back up these claims.Just because it is written by men does not mean it ever happened. Have you anything that is tangible, reasonable on its face, or does not sound like the babbling of primitive medicine men to support your assertions? These are easy words to claim but as in Shakespeares play Henry VI Just because the claim is made and you have faith when there is no evidence for that which leaves no trace does not make it so and indeed would put it ,except for the stubbornness of deeply held belief, squarely in the same realm as no reality whatsoever.[sigh] Imagine my skepticism... A previously intended action is not the same as freewill in the moment my friend.Read up on the experiments performed by Benjamin Libet hereBenjamin Libet - Wikipediaor check out the BBC lectures from V.S. Ramachandran at this site hereBBC - Radio 4 - Reith Lectures 2003 - The Emerging Mindand see if you have a clearer idea of just how uncertain the issue of freewill or even the sense of self is. Well thank you for the effort since I am sure you also were thinking of us Canadians at the same time.The matter is not based upon the choosing of or acceptance that leads me reject the biblical myths but simply a skepticism that leads me to the conclusion that there is no good evidence in favour of the assertions it makes.Edited by sidelined, : No reason given.

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"Logic will get you from A to B. Imagination will take you everywhere."Albert Einstein

ICANT According to whom?

ICANT You cannot use the Bible {written by men such as Isaiah} as evidence of God because that is what they are trying to convince you of in their writings in the first place. In other words what makes us sure or even suspicious that Isaiah has authority to speak of God when the book of Isaiah is written by him.After all let us not forget that Isaiah also wrote this obviously flawed and impossible scenario in verse 38:8 If he can be so wrong in this statement why would we trust him on other matters?Edited by sidelined, : No reason given.Edited by sidelined, : No reason given.

ICANT What must occur physically in order for the shadow on the sundial to move backward ten degrees?Edited by sidelined, : No reason given.

ICANT OK. Sundials record the change in angle of sunlight falling upon a surface with a shadow cast by a gnomon. To make a short story of this ten degrees movement backwards represents the movement of the sun back through the sky to a point it occupied about 40 minutes previously.Now,since the movement of the sun through the sky is, in reality, the rotational movement of the earth around its axis this means that the earth has actually moved backward the equivalent of 40 minutes in its west to east movement.
The earth rotates around its axis at speeds varying dependent upon where you live on the planet. At the equator the speed is a little over 1000 miles per hour. At the latitude of the middle east {appox. 30° North} we can determine the circumference to be a little more than 11000 miles and from this we can determine the rotational velocity {11000 / 24hrs} and we find the speed we are moving at here is around 450 mph.
Now because we are all held in place by gravity to the earth we do not notice this velocity because we are moving in sync with it. However in the scenario described in the bible the earth is moved backwards
40 minutes west {against the west to east rotational direction} and this has consequences.All objects on the face of the earth will still be rotating at different speeds at different places on the planet. Now at the latitude of the middle east this would mean that all things on the surface of earth to varying degrees {animals more than trees and mountains} would now find themselves continuing to move in the direction of the earth former rotational direction at 450 miles per hour.Actually more than that since the sundial indicated this had to occur in less than the time required for the shadow to move enough to be noticed on the plate surface.SO here you are tending your sheep when all of a sudden you find yourself moving at at least 450 mph hour eastward into a hillside that is itself turning to slag from the heat produced by inertial forces.
That is just a small sampling of what would occur and suffice to say it would be total destruction.See what I mean now?Edited by sidelined, : No reason given.Edited by sidelined, : Edited to get the directions of movement correct.

Phat Goddammit Phat . Now I will not get a proper reply from ICANT.Regardless of what God would do to change the laws of physics Phat, there would have to be consequences that show things to be out of sync with what the regular laws of physics would be and we would notice that.Edited by sidelined, : No reason given.

ICANT Tilting the axis of the earth would not produce the effect described and even if it did then people would notice a shift in the patterns of the stars in the sky and THAT would be recorded.

ICANT I am sure about the tilt not affecting the position of the sun in the sky which is needed in order to produce the ten degree change in the suns position in the sky. Their eyes do not need calibrating.Those people on earth for whom the night time is occurring while in the middle east the sundial is recording the ten degree shift would see the stars in the sky also move back ten degrees as well. Also you will notice that the verses say nothing about the degrees being added back on. Yes, the axis does move constantly and the direction in which the plane that earth's axis moves about shifts direction in a cycle lasting many millenia. What changes is that the direction to which the points north and south on the planet that the axis of rotation occupies trace a circular path in the heavens.
The result is that the north star we have today {polaris} lies within a few degrees of this point but back when the great pyramid was being built the location of the pole rested between two different stars.If you wish you can read up on the numerous cycles that our planet engages in and you can soon also see what other innumerable effects occur by changing just one simple thing like the motion of the earth.Check out the following article.Milankovitch cycles - WikipediaHowever this again has nothing to do with the verse at hand and how very wrong it is.Edited by sidelined, : No reason given.

ICANT The Egyptians were building the great pyramid of Giza as a result of rather extensive knowledge of the stars long before Isaiah was born so yes there were trained eyes that had been watching the night sky for quite sometime. That has nothing to do with what I was getting at. Everyone would notice that the sun now is setting 40 minutes later than the previous day. Since even the most stunned human at that time would notice that he is toiling at his labour for an extra 40 minutes ,trust me, there would be record of it.
This is to say nothing of those people such as astrologers and the like who job it was to chart such events meticulously since rulers livelihoods kind of depended upon it. This is the result of the motion of the earth known as precession.This is a simplified example of the motion. You will have to click to enlarge in order for it to work. Now this motion requires around 26000 years to complete so that the time from the ancient Egypt position to now is sufficient time to have moved the precession along in its cycle 3000/26000 parts or about 1/9fthe cycle so things are displaced significantly.
However this does not affect the location of the shadow of the gnomon upon its base surface. Certainly. In fact I will allow you to see for yourself by the best of all possible ways.We shall perform an experiment.You will need a dark room { a bathroom works well if you can get it for about 15 minutes, difficult in some families I know}You will need a bright light source so get ahold of a flash light. Mount this flash light on a surface such as a basin counter on the counters edge so the light is beaming straight off parallel to the floor.
Now if you can secure a plastic ball or some such sphere and place a pin or nail into it so as to be able to both vary the tilt of the sphere and to rotate it around the point of insertion to represent a spinning earth then we will allow you to hold it in front of the light until you can see a definite sharp line where the shadow edge meets the illuminated edge.
Now spin the nail and or pin {or whatever between your thumb and fore finger taking care to maintain the same direction on the axis. This represents the earth spinning beneath the sun. The area in darkness is night side and the area in light of course is daytime. The edge is where dawn or dusk are occurring.
Now stop the spinning and hold it in front of the light then tilt the sphere back and forth without allowing it to spin. You will observe that the line where dark and light meet maintains the same line on the sphere. This would represent your god tilting the sphere about its axis and you can see that the motion has no effect on the location of the line on the sphere{as long as you make certain it has not spun about the axis.} I am not sure I understand this point you are trying to make but the amount that the earth could tilt at maximum is a negligible decrease in the distance between earth and the sun as opposed to earth's regular degree of inclination.The mean distance between the earth and the sun is 93 million miles while the change in distance gained between minimum and maximum tilt possible {0° and 90°} amounts to mere thousands of miles. Daylight savings time is an artificial method employed originally to attempt to save costs on lighting.See here William Willett - Wikipedia Since, by now,I assume you have completed the experiment I gave you you will understand how this cannot work. Therefore you admit that the issue is dependent upon only the word of the person writing the book. Yet this is not a very good basis for trying to determine the veracity of a claim since,if someone is trying to deceive you , they would hardly be expected to give you information that goes against their claim. That is why we depend upon outside verification to a high degree in order to try to eliminate such possibilities when considering such extraordinary claims.It is the same reason that things like bigfoot and Ufo's tend to be so difficult to take seriously. As a person once pointed out concerning such things.
"Anyway, I have to argue about flying saucers on the beach with people, you know. And I was interested in this: they keep arguing that it is possible. And that's true. It is possible. They do not appreciate that the problem is not to demonstrate whether it's possible or not but whether it's going on or not."That is what I submit to examination. A person from long ago can write that such things are possible but if our experiences are such that this contradicts with the way we know how things operate then we cannot give much credence to the people who claim such.Edited by sidelined, : No reason given.Edited by sidelined, : No reason given.

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"Logic will get you from A to B. Imagination will take you everywhere."Albert Einstein

ICANT That is not the point I was making. The Egyptians were not the only ones to have astronomy {or rather astrology} and the fact of the matter is that the Egyptians likely shared the knowledge they had and Moses himself ,having lived in Egypt, could hardly miss out stories about the stars at night.
In a world long before artificial lighting the stars were prominent at nighttime and were long admired. Now to help you picture the effect of a 40 minute change in the stars rising at night perhaps it would be good to show you what the change looks like.
Would you be willing to download a planetarium program? You have not done the experiment I suggested to you? If you had you would be aware that the tilt of the earth has no effect on the shadow cast by a gnomon on a sundial and this statement of yours would not be necessary. That is only half correct ICANT. The Earth goes through its precession over a 26000 year cycle. At any given moment in our lifetimes it points pretty much continuously in the same direction. Observe this rendering of the earth and we can get to the heart of the matter. You will notice that the white circle on top is the great circle traced out by the direction of earth's north pole as it moves through the 26000 year cycle.You will also notice the divisional line between night and day sides of the planet. The white dashed line around the equator represents the west to east movement of the earth as it spins about its axis which is, in this rendering, represented by the red arrow.
Now we come to an awareness where what I told you earlier was also incorrect. {see how easy it is to rescind a previous conviction based on the evidence?} I had said that the tilting of the earth would have no effect upon the shifting of the light on the gnomon and this was not strictly correct.
Since the rotation of the earth would continue if the earth were to be tilted magically then the effect would be that eventually the earth would be rotating about its equator in a north to south direction and one side of the planet would be constantly spinning beneath the sun and the other side of earth would be in perpetual darkness{ or until things came back to normal that is}
That said we also can see the difficulty that would present itself since as the earth tilts the sun would change it orientation in the sky in a similar north to south direction {as you normally witness the sun to do as the seasons change} and that would be noticed as well.The effect on the shadow would be{depending on the direction of tilt change} to extend or shrink the shadows length.Now we come to the issue you raise concerning the motion of the sun from high in the sky to the horizon over the course of a year.The tilt of the earth does not change but,rather, our location in orbit around the sun as this diagram shows. Since the earth maintains a roughly 23 degree tilt while rotating you can see As you saw above the change is an illusion produced by the motion of earth in orbit around the sun through the course of a year so the 47 degree change has no real effect. And the shadow moved 10 degrees so this would amount to 10{the degree change}related to the time change of the suns apparent motion through the sky divided by 360 the distance around an entire circle which relates to the total motion of the sun clear around the earth in a 24 hour day,so 10/360 translates to 1/36th part of 24 hours which is 40 minutes as I stated.Enjoy

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"Logic will get you from A to B. Imagination will take you everywhere."Albert Einstein