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Author Topic:   Why Would a Loving God Create Hell?
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 181 of 196 (449918)
01-19-2008 7:38 PM
Reply to: Message 168 by ICANT
01-19-2008 1:37 PM


Do Biblical Christians read the Bible?
No place in the Bible says your eternal destiny will be determined by your actions. If so give me book chapter and verse.
Matthew 25 is pretty damn explicit about just that.
quote:
31When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
37Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
38When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
39Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
40And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
41Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
42For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
44Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
46And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
"45Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
46And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal."
; not only is that pretty clear but it is also clear that the Goats will be followers, Christians, while the sheep will likely be Non-Believers.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 168 by ICANT, posted 01-19-2008 1:37 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 187 by ICANT, posted 01-20-2008 3:59 PM jar has not replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 182 of 196 (449930)
01-19-2008 8:50 PM
Reply to: Message 179 by purpledawn
01-19-2008 6:02 PM


Re: God and Evil
Hi PD,
purpledawn writes:
So you agree there's a difference. This thread is about Hell and not the lake of fire.
It has been debated as if it was the final resting place. But.
Sure hell is the temporary holding place until the Great White Throne Judgment.
The unrighteous will be like the criminals burned up in Gehenna. They have no place in the world to come. No resurrection. That is their punishment after death, no eternal life. They cease to exist anywhere.
Reve 20:11 (KJS) And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
Where did all those beings come from that was cast into the lake of fire?
No one's debating whether God is everlasting or not. That's not the issue. The issue is Hell and it's purpose.
But you keep saying unsaved going to go poof and disappear. But every human in made in the image of God. That means every human will abide somewhere forever.
The idea of eternal life is a product of the NT.
Job 19:25 (KJS) For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:
26 And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:
27 Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; though my reins be consumed within me.
I guess poor Job was just dreaming. He believed in eternal life but since by your word says it was not until the NT then he had to be delusional.
Notice that the come follow me, was not part of the requirements for eternal life. The actions were.
Did Jesus ever make this offer to anyone else?
Now was the offer for eternal life or as Jesus put it, "you will have treasure in heaven;"?
Just a little bit of difference.
Right behavior has to be there.
Right behavior has nothing to do with God's offer to you.
When you become a child of God right behavior will be there.
That happens because you are born again and the Holy Spirit comes in and guides you in all truth.
This is the problem all those christians you keep throwing up as examples are just like the Pharisees, just a bunch of religious people.
You haven't shown me that the bible writers support the idea that all people are to have eternal life and only the quality of it changes according to our actions or beliefs.
I am going to take a final stab at this:
Gene 1:26 (KJS) And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
27 So God created man in his [own] image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
Mankind is made in the likeness and image of God. Do you agree?
Isai 40:28 (KJV) Hast thou not known? hast thou not heard, that the everlasting God, the LORD, the Creator of the ends of the earth, fainteth not, neither is weary? there is no searching of his understanding.
God is eternal. Do you agree?
If man is made in the image of God and God is eternal then man is eternal.
You can deny it all you want you can not change God's Word.
But you don't have to believe it if you don't want too.
John 3:18 (KJS) He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
That verse says you are already condemned.
It also says you got to accept God's offer to change your condemnation.
Like I said you don't have to believe it. Many didn't so they re-wrote the bible to say what they wanted it to say.
You can listen to man or that still small voice that is speaking directly to you from within.
Sincerely,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 179 by purpledawn, posted 01-19-2008 6:02 PM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 183 by Granny Magda, posted 01-19-2008 9:13 PM ICANT has replied
 Message 184 by purpledawn, posted 01-19-2008 9:55 PM ICANT has replied

  
Granny Magda
Member
Posts: 2462
From: UK
Joined: 11-12-2007
Member Rating: 4.0


Message 183 of 196 (449933)
01-19-2008 9:13 PM
Reply to: Message 182 by ICANT
01-19-2008 8:50 PM


Re: God and Evil
I guess poor Job was just dreaming.
Could be.
This is the problem all those christians you keep throwing up as examples are just like the Pharisees, just a bunch of religious people.
So funny I nearly fell off my chair. Boy, religious people are crazy aren't they? Let's not listen to them!
I am going to take a final stab at this:
Mankind is made in the likeness and image of God. Do you agree?
God is eternal. Do you agree?
If man is made in the image of God and God is eternal then man is eternal.
{Biblical quotations removed}
Shoddy logic ICANT. A painting of a pipe is made in the likeness and image of a pipe, do you agree?
A pipe can be used to smoke tobacco, do you agree?
If a painting of a pipe is made in the image of a pipe and a pipe can be used to smoke tobacco, then a painting of a pipe can be used to smoke tobacco, do you agree?

Mutate and Survive

This message is a reply to:
 Message 182 by ICANT, posted 01-19-2008 8:50 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 185 by ICANT, posted 01-20-2008 3:45 PM Granny Magda has replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 184 of 196 (449937)
01-19-2008 9:55 PM
Reply to: Message 182 by ICANT
01-19-2008 8:50 PM


Re: God and Evil
quote:
Where did all those beings come from that was cast into the lake of fire?
As I said before, Revelation is a vision and symbolic. So one would have to look at what the vision was representing. Death is not a thing and the lake of fire is not Hell since Hell is being thrown into it. So it really isn't part of this debate, which is about Hell.
quote:
But you keep saying unsaved going to go poof and disappear. But every human in made in the image of God. That means every human will abide somewhere forever.
No, I've said that the Bible does not support that the unrighteous will have eternal life. I didn't say anyone would disappear, just die; cease to exist. Once we die we no longer exist.
quote:
I guess poor Job was just dreaming. He believed in eternal life but since by your word says it was not until the NT then he had to be delusional.
I stand corrected.
quote:
Now was the offer for eternal life or as Jesus put it, "you will have treasure in heaven;"?
You know as well as I do what that section said. The individual asked what shall I do to inherit eternal life? and Jesus said follow the commandments. The treasure in heaven was added after he was told to also give to the poor. So following the commandments are essential to obtaining eternal life.
quote:
If man is made in the image of God and God is eternal then man is eternal.
No. According to the tale, without the Tree of Life, man will not live forever.
Ge 3:22
And the Lord God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever."
quote:
Right behavior has nothing to do with God's offer to you.
When you become a child of God right behavior will be there.
I agree, but we are talking about Hell, not the offer.
Yes, once one believes in God the right behavior should follow, but that isn't always the case. The point is at judgment day the right behavior has to be there.
quote:
That verse says you are already condemned.
It also says you got to accept God's offer to change your condemnation.
Like I said you don't have to believe it. Many didn't so they re-wrote the bible to say what they wanted it to say.
If you notice the latter part of the section again speaks of behavior. The Book of John is a later writing and I agree it was probably written to make Jesus more Gentile. That book isn't always in line with the first three Gospels.
As far as the topic goes, I still don't see that those condemned are eternally tormented. The dead just stay dead. No afterlife. Like I said, that fits with the idea of a just and loving God more so than eternal torment.
Why do you have a problem with the dead staying dead?
Why the need for torment?

"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

This message is a reply to:
 Message 182 by ICANT, posted 01-19-2008 8:50 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 186 by ICANT, posted 01-20-2008 3:56 PM purpledawn has not replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 185 of 196 (450104)
01-20-2008 3:45 PM
Reply to: Message 183 by Granny Magda
01-19-2008 9:13 PM


Re: God and Evil
Hi Granny,
Shoddy logic ICANT. A painting of a pipe is made in the likeness and image of a pipe, do you agree?
A pipe can be used to smoke tobacco, do you agree?
If a painting of a pipe is made in the image of a pipe and a pipe can be used to smoke tobacco, then a painting of a pipe can be used to smoke tobacco, do you agree?
No, Yes,
A painting is the image of the pipe it is not made in the image of the pipe.
Therefore it can not be used to smoke tobacco unless you roll the tobacco in it and smoke it. In that case I have to say yes.
Have fun,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 183 by Granny Magda, posted 01-19-2008 9:13 PM Granny Magda has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 188 by Granny Magda, posted 01-20-2008 9:41 PM ICANT has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 186 of 196 (450108)
01-20-2008 3:56 PM
Reply to: Message 184 by purpledawn
01-19-2008 9:55 PM


Re: God and Evil
Hi PD,
Why do you have a problem with the dead staying dead?
Why the need for torment?
I don't have a problem with it. I mentioned in an earlier post I would love to be able to believe that they went out of existence that way I could appease my mind about not doing a good enough job.
I don't have any need for torment.
I don't make the rules.
I understand the Bible to teach if you do not receive Christ as your personal savior you will spend eternity with your father the devil.
This is something I would love to be proved wrong on.
Have fun,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 184 by purpledawn, posted 01-19-2008 9:55 PM purpledawn has not replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 187 of 196 (450111)
01-20-2008 3:59 PM
Reply to: Message 181 by jar
01-19-2008 7:38 PM


Re: Do Biblical Christians read the Bible?
Hi jar,
If you would like to discuss judgments start a thread on it and I will join in as time permits.
But not here,
Have fun,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 181 by jar, posted 01-19-2008 7:38 PM jar has not replied

  
Granny Magda
Member
Posts: 2462
From: UK
Joined: 11-12-2007
Member Rating: 4.0


Message 188 of 196 (450124)
01-20-2008 9:41 PM
Reply to: Message 185 by ICANT
01-20-2008 3:45 PM


Re: God and Evil
ICANT,
quote:
A painting is the image of the pipe it is not made in the image of the pipe.
You are splitting hairs. There is nothing in the phrase "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness" to suggest that we share all of God's attributes. You say that because God is enduring, and we are in his image, we must be enduring too. This is just an association fallacy.
How far do you pursue this logic?
Let us suppose that God is omnipotent.
We are made in his image.
So, by your logic, we are also omnipotent.
You can't claim that we have eternal life using this argument, because it is inherently flawed. Perhaps you might prefer to answer this question, which is slightly more on-topic;
quote:
So answer the question; I accept God's offer of a pardon, but I still think he's a rotten swine. Do I still get into heaven?
  —Granny
Do you have an answer?

Mutate and Survive

This message is a reply to:
 Message 185 by ICANT, posted 01-20-2008 3:45 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 189 by ICANT, posted 01-20-2008 10:23 PM Granny Magda has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 189 of 196 (450130)
01-20-2008 10:23 PM
Reply to: Message 188 by Granny Magda
01-20-2008 9:41 PM


Re: God and Evil
Hi Granny,
Do you have an answer?
I have an opinion.
And since I have no way of knowing whether you are jerking my chain or whether you are sincere I will leave the final answer to the Judge.
You will get your answer when you meet Jesus face to face. He knows what your intentions are.
Now as to my opinion, if you mean business with God yes. If you are saying what you are just to make points no.
Have fun,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 188 by Granny Magda, posted 01-20-2008 9:41 PM Granny Magda has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 190 by Granny Magda, posted 01-20-2008 11:43 PM ICANT has replied

  
Granny Magda
Member
Posts: 2462
From: UK
Joined: 11-12-2007
Member Rating: 4.0


Message 190 of 196 (450145)
01-20-2008 11:43 PM
Reply to: Message 189 by ICANT
01-20-2008 10:23 PM


Re: God and Evil
ICANT writes:
I have an opinion.
All I ask for is your opinion. Neither of us can say for absolute sure what happens after death, although we may have our suspicions.
ICANT writes:
if you mean business with God yes. If you are saying what you are just to make points no.
So after my sojourn in hell, and at the time of this "great white throne judgment", God will accept me into heaven, even if I hate him and abhor his actions. That is something at least. Nonetheless, it makes me wonder what the purpose of hell was in the first place. The only thing that s different is that I now know that God is real, my views and attitudes have not changed one bit; so why not relent sooner? Why not show mercy? Why wait?

Mutate and Survive

This message is a reply to:
 Message 189 by ICANT, posted 01-20-2008 10:23 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 191 by ICANT, posted 01-21-2008 12:22 AM Granny Magda has not replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 191 of 196 (450152)
01-21-2008 12:22 AM
Reply to: Message 190 by Granny Magda
01-20-2008 11:43 PM


Re: God and Evil
Hi Granny,
Granny Magda writes:
So after my sojourn in hell, and at the time of this "great white throne judgment",
No Granny. If you accept Gods gift you will not stand before the Judge at the great white throne judgment. You will not spend any time in hell.
If fact Paul said:
2Cor 5:8 (KJV) We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
Sincerely,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 190 by Granny Magda, posted 01-20-2008 11:43 PM Granny Magda has not replied

  
sidelined
Member (Idle past 5908 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 192 of 196 (450153)
01-21-2008 12:31 AM
Reply to: Message 180 by ICANT
01-19-2008 7:29 PM


Re: The Hidden God
ICANT
So you are saying there would be people with a trained eye that would have been watching the night sky 3000 years ago.
The Egyptians were building the great pyramid of Giza as a result of rather extensive knowledge of the stars long before Isaiah was born so yes there were trained eyes that had been watching the night sky for quite sometime.
Why would the verse need to say He returned it. That was not the object of running it back in the beginning. The object was so He would be believed. Don't get any ideas about Him doing something to convince you. He said the only sign you can have is Jesus being in the grave 3 days and 3 nights.Matt. 12:39-40 Sorry.
That has nothing to do with what I was getting at. Everyone would notice that the sun now is setting 40 minutes later than the previous day. Since even the most stunned human at that time would notice that he is toiling at his labour for an extra 40 minutes ,trust me, there would be record of it.
This is to say nothing of those people such as astrologers and the like who job it was to chart such events meticulously since rulers livelihoods kind of depended upon it.
Do you have any idea what caused this change in the axis?
After all it was pretty dramatic.
This is the result of the motion of the earth known as precession.
This is a simplified example of the motion. You will have to click to enlarge in order for it to work.
Now this motion requires around 26000 years to complete so that the time from the ancient Egypt position to now is sufficient time to have moved the precession along in its cycle 3000/26000 parts or about 1/9fthe cycle so things are displaced significantly.
However this does not affect the location of the shadow of the gnomon upon its base surface.
I don't guess you would be willing to back that up with a little more than your word would you?
Certainly. In fact I will allow you to see for yourself by the best of all possible ways.We shall perform an experiment.
You will need a dark room { a bathroom works well if you can get it for about 15 minutes, difficult in some families I know}
You will need a bright light source so get ahold of a flash light. Mount this flash light on a surface such as a basin counter on the counters edge so the light is beaming straight off parallel to the floor.
Now if you can secure a plastic ball or some such sphere and place a pin or nail into it so as to be able to both vary the tilt of the sphere and to rotate it around the point of insertion to represent a spinning earth then we will allow you to hold it in front of the light until you can see a definite sharp line where the shadow edge meets the illuminated edge.
Now spin the nail and or pin {or whatever between your thumb and fore finger taking care to maintain the same direction on the axis. This represents the earth spinning beneath the sun. The area in darkness is night side and the area in light of course is daytime. The edge is where dawn or dusk are occurring.
Now stop the spinning and hold it in front of the light then tilt the sphere back and forth without allowing it to spin. You will observe that the line where dark and light meet maintains the same line on the sphere. This would represent your god tilting the sphere about its axis and you can see that the motion has no effect on the location of the line on the sphere{as long as you make certain it has not spun about the axis.}
I always thought if you were at an angle to something the closer you got to that object the greater the angle which would make it go away from the direction it was heading. Maybe I was mistaken.
I am not sure I understand this point you are trying to make but the amount that the earth could tilt at maximum is a negligible decrease in the distance between earth and the sun as opposed to earth's regular degree of inclination.The mean distance between the earth and the sun is 93 million miles while the change in distance gained between minimum and maximum tilt possible {0° and 90°} amounts to mere thousands of miles.
Isn't that the reason we have daylight saving time?
Daylight savings time is an artificial method employed originally to attempt to save costs on lighting.See here William Willett - Wikipedia
Remember I am not saying this is what happened. I am just saying it is a possibility. With a change in the axis and a little wobble at the same time which would depend on the time of the year as to how much it would have to be, could produce such an occurrence.
Since, by now,I assume you have completed the experiment I gave you you will understand how this cannot work.
But with my God He could have just made the participants involved see it without anything happening. There is a whole lot of people that see things. In fact since He created the universe and knew what was going to happen He could have programed it in, in advance.
Therefore you admit that the issue is dependent upon only the word of the person writing the book. Yet this is not a very good basis for trying to determine the veracity of a claim since,if someone is trying to deceive you , they would hardly be expected to give you information that goes against their claim. That is why we depend upon outside verification to a high degree in order to try to eliminate such possibilities when considering such extraordinary claims.
It is the same reason that things like bigfoot and Ufo's tend to be so difficult to take seriously. As a person once pointed out concerning such things.
"Anyway, I have to argue about flying saucers on the beach with people, you know. And I was interested in this: they keep arguing that it is possible. And that's true. It is possible. They do not appreciate that the problem is not to demonstrate whether it's possible or not but whether it's going on or not."
That is what I submit to examination. A person from long ago can write that such things are possible but if our experiences are such that this contradicts with the way we know how things operate then we cannot give much credence to the people who claim such.
Edited by sidelined, : No reason given.
Edited by sidelined, : No reason given.

"Logic will get you from A to B. Imagination will take you everywhere."
Albert Einstein

This message is a reply to:
 Message 180 by ICANT, posted 01-19-2008 7:29 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 193 by ICANT, posted 01-21-2008 11:38 PM sidelined has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 193 of 196 (450454)
01-21-2008 11:38 PM
Reply to: Message 192 by sidelined
01-21-2008 12:31 AM


Re: The Hidden God
Hi sidelined,
ICANT writes:
So you are saying there would be people with a trained eye that would have been watching the night sky 3000 years ago.
sidelined writes:
The Egyptians were building the great pyramid of Giza as a result of rather extensive knowledge of the stars long before Isaiah was born so yes there were trained eyes that had been watching the night sky for quite sometime.
When did they move Egypt back to the middle east from the North American continent?
If it is where it has always been there is only one hour time difference in where Isaiah is and Egypt. We both went to sleep on that one.
So it would depend on what time of day it was as to where everybody would be. If it was around noon time in Egypt I don't know if anyone would have noticed anything or not, and since we are moving at such speed as we are anyway who would notice a little tilt. You do know that each year there is a large difference in where the sun is in relation to the equator If I remember correctly around 2 hours difference in the shortest day and the longest day. That is caused by the tilt of the earth on its axis. The angle of the earth to the sun is a 47 degrees change each year. How much change would it take to move a shadow on 10 steps in the sun dial of Ahaz? That would depend on a lot of things. Primarily the rise of each step.
All it would have taken is a big wobble that everybody would think was an earthquake or something of that nature. Hezekiah and Isaiah were the only ones there to see it so God should not have had any problem convincing a sick old man that the shadow did as he requested.
Shucks I saw a fellow make a semi-tractor and trailer disappear. and reappear.
Have fun,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 192 by sidelined, posted 01-21-2008 12:31 AM sidelined has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 194 by sidelined, posted 01-22-2008 3:36 AM ICANT has not replied

  
sidelined
Member (Idle past 5908 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 194 of 196 (450467)
01-22-2008 3:36 AM
Reply to: Message 193 by ICANT
01-21-2008 11:38 PM


Re: The Hidden God
ICANT
When did they move Egypt back to the middle east from the North American continent?
If it is where it has always been there is only one hour time difference in where Isaiah is and Egypt. We both went to sleep on that one.
That is not the point I was making. The Egyptians were not the only ones to have astronomy {or rather astrology} and the fact of the matter is that the Egyptians likely shared the knowledge they had and Moses himself ,having lived in Egypt, could hardly miss out stories about the stars at night.
In a world long before artificial lighting the stars were prominent at nighttime and were long admired. Now to help you picture the effect of a 40 minute change in the stars rising at night perhaps it would be good to show you what the change looks like.
Would you be willing to download a planetarium program?
So it would depend on what time of day it was as to where everybody would be. If it was around noon time in Egypt I don't know if anyone would have noticed anything or not, and since we are moving at such speed as we are anyway who would notice a little tilt.
You have not done the experiment I suggested to you? If you had you would be aware that the tilt of the earth has no effect on the shadow cast by a gnomon on a sundial and this statement of yours would not be necessary.
You do know that each year there is a large difference in where the sun is in relation to the equator If I remember correctly around 2 hours difference in the shortest day and the longest day. That is caused by the tilt of the earth on its axis.
That is only half correct ICANT. The Earth goes through its precession over a 26000 year cycle. At any given moment in our lifetimes it points pretty much continuously in the same direction. Observe this rendering of the earth and we can get to the heart of the matter.
You will notice that the white circle on top is the great circle traced out by the direction of earth's north pole as it moves through the 26000 year cycle.You will also notice the divisional line between night and day sides of the planet. The white dashed line around the equator represents the west to east movement of the earth as it spins about its axis which is, in this rendering, represented by the red arrow.
Now we come to an awareness where what I told you earlier was also incorrect. {see how easy it is to rescind a previous conviction based on the evidence?} I had said that the tilting of the earth would have no effect upon the shifting of the light on the gnomon and this was not strictly correct.
Since the rotation of the earth would continue if the earth were to be tilted magically then the effect would be that eventually the earth would be rotating about its equator in a north to south direction and one side of the planet would be constantly spinning beneath the sun and the other side of earth would be in perpetual darkness{ or until things came back to normal that is}
That said we also can see the difficulty that would present itself since as the earth tilts the sun would change it orientation in the sky in a similar north to south direction {as you normally witness the sun to do as the seasons change} and that would be noticed as well.The effect on the shadow would be{depending on the direction of tilt change} to extend or shrink the shadows length.
Now we come to the issue you raise concerning the motion of the sun from high in the sky to the horizon over the course of a year.The tilt of the earth does not change but,rather, our location in orbit around the sun as this diagram shows.
Since the earth maintains a roughly 23 degree tilt while rotating you can see
The angle of the earth to the sun is a 47 degrees change each year. How much change would it take to move a shadow on 10 steps in the sun dial of Ahaz? That would depend on a lot of things. Primarily the rise of each step.
As you saw above the change is an illusion produced by the motion of earth in orbit around the sun through the course of a year so the 47 degree change has no real effect. And the shadow moved 10 degrees so this would amount to 10{the degree change}related to the time change of the suns apparent motion through the sky divided by 360 the distance around an entire circle which relates to the total motion of the sun clear around the earth in a 24 hour day,so 10/360 translates to 1/36th part of 24 hours which is 40 minutes as I stated.
Enjoy

"Logic will get you from A to B. Imagination will take you everywhere."
Albert Einstein

This message is a reply to:
 Message 193 by ICANT, posted 01-21-2008 11:38 PM ICANT has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 195 by AdminPD, posted 01-22-2008 4:39 AM sidelined has not replied

  
AdminPD
Inactive Administrator


Message 195 of 196 (450473)
01-22-2008 4:39 AM
Reply to: Message 194 by sidelined
01-22-2008 3:36 AM


Topic - ICANT and Sidelined given 12 hours suspensions by Adminnemooseus
Sidelined and ICANT,
Please get back to the topic of why a loving God would create Hell.
Please direct any comments concerning this Admin msg to the Moderation Thread.
Any response in this thread will receive a 24 hour timeout.
Thank you Purple
{Added by edit - Adminnemooseus observation - ICANT and Sidelined have exchanged many way off topic messages, going back to at least about messsage 153/154. This is a display of absolute cluelessness of what the topic is (Hint: see topic title). Prior to that they may or may not have been on topic, but I sensed that the topic was at least in sight. I'm going to give them both a (token?) 12 hour suspension, to both get their attention and to put this situation into "The Public Record".}
Edited by Adminnemooseus, : See above.
Edited by Adminnemooseus, : Changed some of my text to being in red.
Edited by Adminnemooseus, : Changed subtitle from "Topic" to "Topic - ICANT and Sidelined given 12 hours suspensions by Adminnemooseus".

This message is a reply to:
 Message 194 by sidelined, posted 01-22-2008 3:36 AM sidelined has not replied

  
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