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Author Topic:   Honour Amongst Christians
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 46 of 308 (450243)
01-21-2008 12:13 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by ICANT
01-21-2008 10:28 AM


Re: Good is greater than God
News Flash: once in the lake of fire you don't get out to spend time with God. Sorry.
Why would anyone want to spend time with your God?
Who decides what righteousness is?
Who decides what is honorable?
Each of us, every day and with every decision. We are charged to try to do our best and we will be judged based on whether or not we actually tried. We are charged with trying to make the best decisions within the limited and incomplete knowledge we have.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by ICANT, posted 01-21-2008 10:28 AM ICANT has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 48 by iano, posted 01-21-2008 12:18 PM jar has replied

iano
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 47 of 308 (450244)
01-21-2008 12:15 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by Stile
01-18-2008 1:22 PM


Re: Understanding the basics
Stile writes:
All I'm saying is that God can grant salvation. And I've heard that some people believe God gives the gift of salvation to those who ask for it. Yet will not give it to anyone who does not ask for it.
To me, a gift is honourable if you don't ask for it and someone still gives it to you. Otherwise (if you asked for it) you certainly may still deserve it, and it can still be good, but it's not honourable any longer.
Say God somehow set about convincing a person that they are an unforgiven sinner in his sight and that the fate of unforgiven sinners is surely Hell. Fully convinced of their destination the person cries out to God for mercy.
Is the "ask" coming from the free will of the person themselves? Or has it been pressed out of them by Gods action upon them? His convincing them..
If the latter and the person asks for forgiveness (as Christian theology indicates they must) is this honourable on the part of God and man.
Is it not a gift given completely freely - the "act of asking" also being part of Gods gift?
Edited by iano, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by Stile, posted 01-18-2008 1:22 PM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 58 by Stile, posted 01-21-2008 2:03 PM iano has replied

iano
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 48 of 308 (450248)
01-21-2008 12:18 PM
Reply to: Message 46 by jar
01-21-2008 12:13 PM


Re: Good is greater than God
Charged with trying by whom?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by jar, posted 01-21-2008 12:13 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 50 by jar, posted 01-21-2008 12:21 PM iano has replied

Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 49 of 308 (450249)
01-21-2008 12:19 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by ICANT
01-21-2008 10:28 AM


Marketing the product
It seemsto me as if you are trying to market a product(relationship with God=salvation) that nobody wants to buy. You then tell them that if they don't wish to buy the product you will give it to them. They graciously refuse your offer and so you say "oh well! Lake of Fire for you! Have fun!"
Perhaps you can be a better salesman and tell them in practical terms (not Biblically metaphorical live forever in paradise terms)
why they would be better off accepting this personal relationship with Jesus.
Stile seems to feel that he just wants to be left alone and that he himself will do the best he can in life. WWJD? What would Jesus say to Stile?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by ICANT, posted 01-21-2008 10:28 AM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 54 by ringo, posted 01-21-2008 1:29 PM Phat has not replied
 Message 55 by ICANT, posted 01-21-2008 1:43 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 50 of 308 (450250)
01-21-2008 12:21 PM
Reply to: Message 48 by iano
01-21-2008 12:18 PM


Re: Good is greater than God
GOD.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by iano, posted 01-21-2008 12:18 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 51 by iano, posted 01-21-2008 12:30 PM jar has replied

iano
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 51 of 308 (450255)
01-21-2008 12:30 PM
Reply to: Message 50 by jar
01-21-2008 12:21 PM


Re: Good is greater than God
From whence that notion?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by jar, posted 01-21-2008 12:21 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 52 by jar, posted 01-21-2008 12:32 PM iano has not replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 52 of 308 (450256)
01-21-2008 12:32 PM
Reply to: Message 51 by iano
01-21-2008 12:30 PM


Re: Good is greater than God
That is the major point of the Garden of Eden tale. But that is another topic. This thread is on "Honour Amongst Christians" which certainly seems to be sadly lacking in many cases.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by iano, posted 01-21-2008 12:30 PM iano has not replied

ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 53 of 308 (450268)
01-21-2008 12:55 PM
Reply to: Message 42 by Stile
01-21-2008 9:10 AM


Re: So "ask" doesn't mean "ask"?
Hi Stile,
Stile writes:
Do you mean that admitting we're wrong is "asking" for salvation?
I did not see this post before my last post or I would have addressed it there.
I as most have a way of oversimplyfying Gods way of salvation.
There are many things involved in the asking for salvation or receiving the full pardon I talk about, I will name them.
The first thing is you would have to believe God exist.
Second you would have to believe God can and will do what He says He will do.
Hebr 11:6 (KJV) But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
Third you would have to see the need for asking.
Roma 3:23 (KJV) For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
Isai 64:6 (KJV) But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.
Isaiah thought his righteousness was pretty good and it was compared to the rest of Israel. But when he compared it to the righteousness of God he had a different idea.
Then you would have to have the promise.
Roma 6:23 (KJV) For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Now we come to the point of asking.
Hebrews 11:6 above says we must believe that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
Now we are talking about faith.
I have a little story I like to tell to illustrate faith.
I lived in the Cayman Islands for 15 years and I wanted my step mother to come visit me after my dad died. She said but I would have to fly. I added or come by boat. I said all you have to do is go to Tampa International Airport and pick up the ticket, get on the airplane and come see me. She said: "but son the plane would fall".
I said Momma do you believe in Airplanes? She said yes. I said do believe they can fly? She said yes. I said, then why not get on the plane and come see me? She said: son if I get on the plane it will fall. I said: Momma for 60+ years you have lived in the flight pattern from Tampa to Atlanta planes going one way or the other every 60 minutes or so how many has ever fallen? Her answer: none that I know of son. Then why not get on the airplane and come see me. Son if I get on that plane it will fall.
You see my Mom believed all the facts about airplanes, but she did not have faith the one she got on would be able to fly. All she would have to do to come see me was get on the plane put her trust in the pilot and airplane to get her to Grand Cayman.
So to receive the free gift from God all a person has to do is trust God to save them through the sacrifice Jesus made to pay for their ticket.
I suppose the reason I do not explain it in such detail is that I assume others would know what is involved. But I should remember that here many do not even believe in God and therefore would not be able to understand what is involved. So I beg forgiveness for this oversight.
My personal testimony..
I asked Jesus to save me one month before my 10th birthday. I was raised in a good home by my grand parents and my father. But none went to church. We did have a bible and I loved to read nothing much to do on a farm in the 40's but work, go to school, sleep, eat and read. I did get to listen to the Grand Ole Opery on Saturday Night. That is the only time the battery radio was turned on except for grandpa to listen to Walter Cronkite. In reading the bible I became very interested in what it said and began catching rides to church. Then later I trusted Christ to save me.
Since that time I have not always done what I was supposed to do although I have tried. I still work at the age of 68 because I love to help other people. I have never done injury or harm to anyone. I have always helped anyone I could. I have been married to my wife for 50 years and have never even raised my voice to her. So I would say I have been a pretty good fellow.
But when I examine myself I have no idea why God loved me so much as to be willing to give His only begotten Son to take my place so I could have eternal life.
I was not worthy.
I am not worthy.
I will not be worthy when I meet Jesus face to face.
On my own or for anything I have done in my lifetime other than.
Believe God would give me eternal life for His Son's sake who was separated from Him for the space of 3 hours to pay my sin debt.
Stile writes:
If faith ever was a nice, clean ideal, I certainly don't find it so now. Faith seems tainted and abused to me, I want to stay away from the word.
Message 43
I have no problem with the word faith but I prefer trust.
You talked about James where he is talking about faith and works. You must remember he is talking to the 12 tribes of Israel. These people were still operating under the law.
But he was quite right in saying faith without works is dead.
But I prefer to use what Paul said to the church at Ephesus.
Ephe 2:8 (KJV) For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
Here Paul was saying we are saved by grace (grace=God's unmerited favor).
through faith; (our trust in Him to do what He said He would do)
Not of works (good deeds or acts of any kind).
No one able to brag about what they had done.
For we are His workmanship=a new creation in Christ.
Created in, by or through Jesus unto good works.
In other words if a person is born again they will do good works.
If a person tells me he is saved (a Christian) and I see no good works I tend to believe he is a liar because he is only a professor and not a possessor.
professor=someone who claims to be something he is not.
posessor=one who possesses as a personal possession eternal life.
Have fun,
Sincerely

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by Stile, posted 01-21-2008 9:10 AM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 61 by Stile, posted 01-21-2008 2:35 PM ICANT has replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 54 of 308 (450280)
01-21-2008 1:29 PM
Reply to: Message 49 by Phat
01-21-2008 12:19 PM


Re: Marketing the product
Phat writes:
It seemsto me as if you are trying to market a product(relationship with God=salvation) that nobody wants to buy.
That's the bottom line, isn't it? They've invented a car that explodes when you turn left. The honourable thing to do would be to recall the product and fix the problems.
Instead, they claim that it's your choice to turn left, so it's your fault the car exploded. They think an honourable salesman is one who tells you, "Don't turn left."
But a truly honourable saleaman would be one who refused to sell a defective product and worked toward making it safer.

“If you had half a brain, wouldn't you have realized after the second time, that it was you, not God?” -- riVeRraT (see context here)
“The endearing controvertist! One needs to become acute in the ploys of his kind.” -- ThreeDogs

This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by Phat, posted 01-21-2008 12:19 PM Phat has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 59 by ICANT, posted 01-21-2008 2:16 PM ringo has replied

ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 55 of 308 (450281)
01-21-2008 1:43 PM
Reply to: Message 49 by Phat
01-21-2008 12:19 PM


Re: Marketing the product
Hi Phat,
Phat writes:
Perhaps you can be a better salesman and tell them in practical terms (not Biblically metaphorical live forever in paradise terms)
why they would be better off accepting this personal relationship with Jesus.
I am not trying to sell anything, and I am not trying to give anything away. I have been pointing out what the Bible says concerning what God says concerning eternal life and how you can obtain it.
Phat it really does not matter what I believe or anyone else for that matter. What God says is all that counts. I will not be judged by what I think or anyone else I will be judged according to what God said. Now if the record we have (The Bible) has been tampered with to the point that God's Word is not in there that is man's fault not God's. If what I have and believe is not what God said then I am in big trouble as sincerity does not count.
Now if I go into my sales pitch I am afraid Percy would nail me to a tree. So I think I will forgo that route.
Hopefully my Message 53 can shed a little light on the subject.
I will say this:
I gave my life to Jesus just prior to my 10th birthday.
From that time until now God has supplied everything I need.
Even my beautiful wonderful loving wife of 50 years.
I have many wonderful (true) friends. I could literally ask for the shirt off their back and they would gladly give it to me. Because I gave them one off my back in the past. (understand this is representing things we have done for each other).
I have what everybody in the world is seeking for. Peace, Joy, Happiness, and Contentment.
If my life was to end today I would be satisfied with it even though it would not merit me anything in the sight of God as far as my eternal condition is concerned.
If I could go back and do it all over again would I change anything.
Yes I would try to do more.
Have fun now,

This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by Phat, posted 01-21-2008 12:19 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


Message 56 of 308 (450284)
01-21-2008 1:49 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by ICANT
01-21-2008 10:28 AM


What is honourable?
Who decides what righteousness is?
Who decides what is honorable?
I defined honourable in the first post:
quote:
By honour, I mean "that which tries to help those less-fortunate and looks for nothing in return".
Do you disagree?
What do you say honourable is, then? Or, if you'd prefer another wording, what does God say honourable is?
If God isn't good enough for human standards, He certianly isn't good enough for anything bigger.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by ICANT, posted 01-21-2008 10:28 AM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 57 by Phat, posted 01-21-2008 1:53 PM Stile has replied
 Message 63 by ICANT, posted 01-21-2008 3:00 PM Stile has replied

Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 57 of 308 (450286)
01-21-2008 1:53 PM
Reply to: Message 56 by Stile
01-21-2008 1:49 PM


Re: What is honourable?
I maintain that if a truth seeker such as yourself were to honestly conclude that the Bible was not the final word on honor and/or relationship with God, that you would be doing the best that you could.
Why then would you be liable?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 56 by Stile, posted 01-21-2008 1:49 PM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 62 by Stile, posted 01-21-2008 2:48 PM Phat has not replied

Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


Message 58 of 308 (450291)
01-21-2008 2:03 PM
Reply to: Message 47 by iano
01-21-2008 12:15 PM


Can't ask for honour
quote:
Say God somehow set about convincing a person that they are an unforgiven sinner in his sight and that the fate of unforgiven sinners is surely Hell. Fully convinced of their destination the person cries out to God for mercy.
Is the "ask" coming from the free will of the person themselves?Or has it been pressed out of them by Gods action upon them?
I would say it's still free will. This person may be fully convinced of their destination and still choose to accept it. If they believe they are that rotten, it's possible they may believe they deserve the fate.
If the latter and the person asks for forgiveness (as Christian theology indicates they must) is this honourable on the part of God and man.
No, it's not honourable. It doesn't really seem to have anything to do with honour.
Is it not a gift given completely freely - the "act of asking" also being part of Gods gift?
No, the gift is not given completely freely if one has to ask for it. Regardless if that asking is stressed on them by God or not. The only way a gift is given freely (and in an honourable way) is if it didn't have to be asked for.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by iano, posted 01-21-2008 12:15 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 80 by iano, posted 01-22-2008 6:16 AM Stile has replied

ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 59 of 308 (450294)
01-21-2008 2:16 PM
Reply to: Message 54 by ringo
01-21-2008 1:29 PM


Re: Marketing the product
Hi Ringo,
Ringo writes:
But a truly honourable saleaman would be one who refused to sell a defective product and worked toward making it safer.
So it is the salesman's fault and not the manufacturer.
God set up an Estate in the Devils kingdom Earth. He place a man in it and provided everything he needed.
He made one rule for living in His Estate.
That man broke the rule.
That man was kicked out of the estate into the kingdom of the devil.
You are a descendent of that man.
Therefore you or I have no right to live in God's Estate.
It was His Estate and He was in no way obligated to even offer us an opportunity to live there.
But God has offered us a chance to live in His Estate.
I personally have accepted God's invitation and have met His requirements to come live in His Estate. I can make that decision for no one else not even my wife.
Since this is God's Estate I have no say in how He operates it or what rules He makes concerning it.
Since this is His universe I have no say in what happens to those who do not receive His offer to come live in His Estate.
I have stated what the Bible says are His requirements for living in His Estate.
I have also stated what the Bible says is going to happen to those who do not meet those requirements.
Now if that is being less than honorable then I would fit into that category.
Have fun,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 54 by ringo, posted 01-21-2008 1:29 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 60 by ringo, posted 01-21-2008 2:29 PM ICANT has replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 60 of 308 (450300)
01-21-2008 2:29 PM
Reply to: Message 59 by ICANT
01-21-2008 2:16 PM


Re: Marketing the product
ICANT writes:
So it is the salesman's fault and not the manufacturer.
Both, obviously.
I have stated what the Bible says are His requirements for living in His Estate.
You've stated your opinion. And you've stated your analogy over and over again. Deal with mine.
How is it honourable to knowingly manufacture or sell a defective or dangerous product?
Now if that is being less than honorable then I would fit into that category.
I picture you in a plaid suit that used to be a Volkswagen seat-cover.

“If you had half a brain, wouldn't you have realized after the second time, that it was you, not God?” -- riVeRraT (see context here)
“The endearing controvertist! One needs to become acute in the ploys of his kind.” -- ThreeDogs

This message is a reply to:
 Message 59 by ICANT, posted 01-21-2008 2:16 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 64 by ICANT, posted 01-21-2008 3:24 PM ringo has replied

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