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Author Topic:   Honour Amongst Christians
Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


Message 61 of 308 (450304)
01-21-2008 2:35 PM
Reply to: Message 53 by ICANT
01-21-2008 12:55 PM


Re: So "ask" doesn't mean "ask"?
Yes, it appears I've oversimplified the situation by assuming salvation was granted only with a specific question.
Let's go through your more in-depth depiction:
ICANT writes:
The first thing is you would have to believe God exist.
Second you would have to believe God can and will do what He says He will do.
I'm trying to assume these are both true for as far as this arguement is concerned. Without these as known truths, the honour issue gets a lot more problems.
Third you would have to see the need for asking.
I think this is part of my problem. I agree that I make mistakes. I agree that I'm not worthy of salvation or eternal life or living alongside a God. But understanding I'm far from perfect, and asking for a great gift are two different things.
Then you would have to have the promise.
Is this just along the lines of knowing God is capable of granting salvation and gives it to those who ask?
The promise you quote doesn't really make this clear:
quote:
Roma 6:23 (KJV) For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
This says nothing of asking for anything. And I'm already agreeing that God (and Jesus) is the only one capable of granting salvation.
quote:
Hebrews 11:6 above says we must believe that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
I don't really like this. Is it saying that God rewards those who seek God? That doesn't sound very righteous of God. It sounds very superficial. I think if this was to have any honourable meaning, it would imply that God rewards those who diligently seek God's ways... ways of righteousness and honour.
So to receive the free gift from God all a person has to do is trust God to save them through the sacrifice Jesus made to pay for their ticket.
So you're saying there's not so much "asking" involved as their is "trusting in the faith".
I agree that solves the honour problem with having to request salvation. But it only invents another problem.
1. God exists
2. God is good
3. God created me (and the world, and everything)
4. God will grant me salvation (the greatest gift) if I trust in His existance.
5. My God-granted abilities of reasoning show me no evidence at all of God's existance.
6. I cannot be true to myself (God's gifts to me) and also believe in God's existance.
7. It is dishonourable for me to lie to myself (and disgrace God's gifts) in order to trust in God's existance.
It just doesn't make sense.
But, if we change 4. from His existance to His virtues of righteousness, goodness and honour, we get:
1. God exists
2. God is good
3. God created me (and the world, and everything)
4. God will grant me salvation (the greatest gift) if I trust in His virtues of righteousness, goodness and honour.
5. My God-granted abilities of reasoning show me no evidence at all of God's existance (but it doesn't matter).
6. My God-granted abilities of reasoning show me mountains of evidence of God's virtues, and why I should be following them.
7. I can honourably dedicate my life to upholding the virtues of God. Even though I cannot verify God's existance in itself, it doesn't matter.
In the grand scheme of things, this makes much more sense too. Why would an infinite God care if we trusted in His existance? It seems to fit a lot better that an infinite God would care if we tried to be good people.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by ICANT, posted 01-21-2008 12:55 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 69 by ICANT, posted 01-21-2008 4:57 PM Stile has replied

Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


Message 62 of 308 (450309)
01-21-2008 2:48 PM
Reply to: Message 57 by Phat
01-21-2008 1:53 PM


Re: What is honourable?
Phat writes:
Why then would you be liable?
I'm not really concerned with "being liable". I am liable. I'm at peace with that. Whether I know the consequences or not, whether I know the rules or not, or even whether I'm capable of knowing the rules; I'm liable for my own actions.
I have no problems with being considered liable for my actions.
The only problem is that some being may judge a good person as evil simply because they didn't bow down to Him. And some people try to pass such a God off as good or honourable Himself. That's just wrong.
But I'm learning that first off most people don't respect such a God (which is what I suspected in the first place). And I'm also learning that those who do appear to respect this God, are more getting confused that I'm attacking their specific God but it turns out I wasn't talking about the God they believe in anyway.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 57 by Phat, posted 01-21-2008 1:53 PM Phat has not replied

ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 63 of 308 (450314)
01-21-2008 3:00 PM
Reply to: Message 56 by Stile
01-21-2008 1:49 PM


Re: What is honourable?
Hi Stile,
Stile writes:
Do you disagree?
I agree that would be very honorable in my opinion.
Stile writes:
What do you say honourable is, then?
But to tell you the truth I do not think of doing those things because they might be good or honorable.
Jesus gave me 2 commandments that I am supposed to try to govern my life by after I accepted God's invitation to come live in His Estate.
1. Love the Lord thy God with all your mind, body and spirit.
2. Love thy neighbor as thyself.
Here we are discussing the second one.
I don't like to be hungry.
I don't like to not have shoes or clothes.
I do not like to sleep on the ground unless it is a camping trip.
I do not like to live in a run down house.
I would not like to live in a card board box under an interstate overpass somewhere.
And the list could go on an on.
But I think you get the idea.
So if I love myself enough to try to provide better than that for myself I am supposed to love my neighbor enough that I don't want him to have to do those things either.
Can I eliminate this problem. No.
Does that mean I should not do as much as I can to eliminate the problem. No
Since I am one person what is my best course of action to help others.
Well I can help through my church.
But since I owned my own small company I was able to help in a way that was far better than giving a hand out.
I was able to give a hand up. I have taught many people who had little education and no skills how to be able to make a living working with their hands.
Now I have answered my questions as to who I think should decide what is righteousness, and honorable.
Would you care to state who you think should make the decision?
Who decides what righteousness is?
Who decides what is honorable?
Have fun life is short,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 56 by Stile, posted 01-21-2008 1:49 PM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 66 by Stile, posted 01-21-2008 4:35 PM ICANT has replied

ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 64 of 308 (450318)
01-21-2008 3:24 PM
Reply to: Message 60 by ringo
01-21-2008 2:29 PM


Re: Marketing the product
Hi Ringo,
Ringo writes:
How is it honourable to knowingly manufacture or sell a defective or dangerous product?
Just what is the dangerous product that you are referring too?
I will assume you are talking about the lake of fire or hell as some refer to it.
I have told and gave scripture that they were prepared for the devil and his angels.
The first man sold you into slavery to the devil, satan or whatever you want to call him. That means you are his slave and you will abide in his estate wherever he is. Unless you can find a way to escape.
I got a great idea why don't we just say God and the devil heaven and hell don't exist that will make them go away.
I think that is a bad idea.
What else could I do to escape?
Well I could accept Gods pardon and invitation to come live in His Estate with Him.
No I think He is just being too mean to want me to believe in Him, Trust Him. I think I will do it my way.
I think that is a bad idea also.
I think maybe we ought to sue the manufacturer.
If we put enough money together I am sure we could find a lawyer to take the case. I don't know about a court or judge though.
Have fun,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 60 by ringo, posted 01-21-2008 2:29 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 65 by ringo, posted 01-21-2008 3:55 PM ICANT has replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 65 of 308 (450323)
01-21-2008 3:55 PM
Reply to: Message 64 by ICANT
01-21-2008 3:24 PM


Re: Marketing the product
ICANT writes:
Just what is the dangerous product that you are referring too?
I will assume you are talking about the lake of fire or hell as some refer to it.
Well, the product is the whole interpretation of the Bible that you're trying to sell and the dangerous side-effect is the bursting-into-flames part.
The question is, why would I buy a car from you when I can go down the street to Buddha Motors and get one that will never explode. Why wouldn't I prefer the more honourable salesman who sells a safe product?
For that matter, why wouldn't I go across the street to Jar Motors and buy the same turbocharged 2008 Christian that you sell, but warranteed against explosions?

“If you had half a brain, wouldn't you have realized after the second time, that it was you, not God?” -- riVeRraT (see context here)
“The endearing controvertist! One needs to become acute in the ploys of his kind.” -- ThreeDogs

This message is a reply to:
 Message 64 by ICANT, posted 01-21-2008 3:24 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 67 by ICANT, posted 01-21-2008 4:51 PM ringo has replied

Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


Message 66 of 308 (450340)
01-21-2008 4:35 PM
Reply to: Message 63 by ICANT
01-21-2008 3:00 PM


Does honour matter?
ICANT writes:
But to tell you the truth I do not think of doing those things because they might be good or honorable.
Fair enough. So, do good and honour matter to you? Or just not where getting salvation is concerned? If honour doesn't matter to you, why are you concerned with my problem of it?
Jesus gave me 2 commandments that I am supposed to try to govern my life by after I accepted God's invitation to come live in His Estate.
So you do these things because they are commanded of you? Commanded, of course, by the most supreme, all-powerful creator of the universe who knows what's best for everyone. But commanded all the same.
Commandments are always without honour. They remove personal responsibility, and therefore remove any sense of honour.
Who decides what righteousness is?
Who decides what is honorable?
Anyone who understands the concepts. They are objective virtues, once the virtue is known and agreed upon by honest individuals. Such as:
quote:
By honour, I mean "that which tries to help those less-fortunate and looks for nothing in return".
If you think the definition is missing anything, feel free to offer up an alternative or addition so we can discuss it. But you seem to agree that this describes honour. I fully admit this description is incomplete (at best, it's rather limited). I am not capable of putting the entire virtue and all it's facets into a simple definition. But that doesn't stop the virtue from existing. There are a set of actions that humans are capable of that we describe as honourable. One of the most fundamental is helping others and expecting nothing in return. Anyone who understands this concept can decide if anyone (including themselves) is being honourable. Which means I can judge if God is acting honourably. And, of course, God can easily judge if I'm acting honourably. And we'll both agree, too.
In that case the answer to "who decides what is honourable?" is kind of nonsense. There is no "who" deciding anything, it's objective and absolute.
Anyone "that tries to help those less-fortunate and looks for nothing in return" is being honourable. There doesn't even have to be anyone around to judge it to be so. It is, because that's the meaning of the virtue.
Nobody ever created honour and brought it out to the population. The population simply classified a section of good actions under the word honourable.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 63 by ICANT, posted 01-21-2008 3:00 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 70 by Phat, posted 01-21-2008 4:59 PM Stile has replied
 Message 73 by ICANT, posted 01-21-2008 6:17 PM Stile has replied

ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 67 of 308 (450343)
01-21-2008 4:51 PM
Reply to: Message 65 by ringo
01-21-2008 3:55 PM


Re: Marketing the product
Hi Ringo,
Ringo writes:
Well, the product is the whole interpretation of the Bible that you're trying to sell and the dangerous side-effect is the bursting-into-flames part.
I am not trying to sell you an interpretation of the Bible.
I would like to sell you a fire insurance policy if you are interested.
Ringo writes:
The question is, why would I buy a car from you when I can go down the street to Buddha Motors and get one that will never explode. Why wouldn't I prefer the more honourable salesman who sells a safe product?
I am not in the new car or used car business but maybe I could interest you in an eternal life insurance policy. Premium paid up plan already paid in full.
Ringo writes:
For that matter, why wouldn't I go across the street to Jar Motors and buy the same turbocharged 2008 Christian that you sell, but warranteed against explosions?
If you willing to drive that heap I don't have an insurance policy that will cover it.
Have fun,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 65 by ringo, posted 01-21-2008 3:55 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 68 by ringo, posted 01-21-2008 4:54 PM ICANT has replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 68 of 308 (450345)
01-21-2008 4:54 PM
Reply to: Message 67 by ICANT
01-21-2008 4:51 PM


Re: Marketing the product
ICANT writes:
I would like to sell you a fire insurance policy if you are interested.
The trouble is that you're telling me my house will burn down if I don't buy the insurance. That sounds more like a protection racket than an honourable business.

“If you had half a brain, wouldn't you have realized after the second time, that it was you, not God?” -- riVeRraT (see context here)
“The endearing controvertist! One needs to become acute in the ploys of his kind.” -- ThreeDogs

This message is a reply to:
 Message 67 by ICANT, posted 01-21-2008 4:51 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 71 by ICANT, posted 01-21-2008 5:14 PM ringo has replied

ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 69 of 308 (450346)
01-21-2008 4:57 PM
Reply to: Message 61 by Stile
01-21-2008 2:35 PM


Re: So "ask" doesn't mean "ask"?
Hi Stile,
ICANT writes:
The first thing is you would have to believe God exist.
Second you would have to believe God can and will do what He says He will do.
Stile writes:
I'm trying to assume these are both true for as far as this arguement is concerned. Without these as known truths, the honour issue gets a lot more problems.
The problem is not the second one.
If you can believe the first one the second one is no problem at all.
ICANT writes:
Third you would have to see the need for asking.
Stile writes:
I think this is part of my problem. I agree that I make mistakes. I agree that I'm not worthy of salvation or eternal life or living alongside a God. But understanding I'm far from perfect, and asking for a great gift are two different things.
Even this problem gets small when the first one is solved.
ICANT writes:
Then you would have to have the promise.
Stile writes:
Is this just along the lines of knowing God is capable of granting salvation and gives it to those who ask?
No all I was saying is that you have to know the promise has been made.
If you did not know it existed why would you try to obtain it.
Stile writes:
This says nothing of asking for anything. And I'm already agreeing that God (and Jesus) is the only one capable of granting salvation.
I think many times I and others use accept and ask in interchangeably when trying to point out something.
Stile, if you were to walk into my office and say ICANT I want to be saved tell me what I have to do.
I would not tell you that you had to join the church, be baptised, tithe, do good deeds or anything of that nature.
I would ask you:
Stile do you believe in God? yes/no if yes we proceed if no we try to resolve that question until it is resolved we can go no further.
Once this question is resolved to be yes then we proceed with:
Stile do you believe Jesus Christ died on the cross to pay your sin debt in full? yes/no when yes we can proceed.
Stile do you believe God will do what He says He will do? yes/no when yes we proceed.
Stile do you understand according to John 3:18 that you are condemned already? That means you do not have to commit any sin of anykind it is already settled in the past and exists now because you have not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God do you understand? Answer yes/no when yes we can proceed.
John 3:18 (KJV) He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
OK Stile God sent His Son to die in your place. He willingly died to pay your sin debt. God said He had a free gift for you which is eternal life. Romans 6:23.
Stile do you want to receive this free gift God is offering to you realizing you can do nothing to earn it or pay for it as then it becomes wages? yes/no when yes we can proceed.
Stile at this point you are pretty much on your own you realize your need you see the solution it is up to you to accept the offer God is making to you or reject it. That is entirely up to you.
This is not a feeling, This is a decision you have to make in your mind. Then you have to let God know what it is.
No I am not going to ask you to say a prayer after me.
You don't have to pray.
All you have to do is convey to God that you want to receive His offer.
You say ICANT how long is this going to take? However long it takes.
Sincerely,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by Stile, posted 01-21-2008 2:35 PM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 85 by Stile, posted 01-22-2008 12:44 PM ICANT has not replied

Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 70 of 308 (450348)
01-21-2008 4:59 PM
Reply to: Message 66 by Stile
01-21-2008 4:35 PM


A Side Comment
I have a little side comment that is hopefully not off topic:
IF God foreknows us, created us, and knows every quirk and idiosyncrasy of human nature that we have, would He not then know that we would be likely to have discussions such as this and ask honest questions about the validity of His instructions? (Even questioning the validity of the instructions themselves?)
Is not honor equitable with honesty? And again....if we were a defective product and He foreknew that many of us would reject blind faith, why the whole lake of fire gig? Why not simply have us cease to exist once we die? After all, He is God and is capable of anything, right?
Edited by Phat, : fixed quote

This message is a reply to:
 Message 66 by Stile, posted 01-21-2008 4:35 PM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 86 by Stile, posted 01-22-2008 12:47 PM Phat has not replied

ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 71 of 308 (450356)
01-21-2008 5:14 PM
Reply to: Message 68 by ringo
01-21-2008 4:54 PM


Re: Marketing the product
Hi Ringo,
Ringo writes:
The trouble is that you're telling me my house will burn down if I don't buy the insurance. That sounds more like a protection racket than an honourable business.
No I am telling you your house is burning down it is over halfway gone. But I am still willing to get you a policy to cover you.
You show me another company that would offer you that kind of policy.
Have fun,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 68 by ringo, posted 01-21-2008 4:54 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 72 by ringo, posted 01-21-2008 5:36 PM ICANT has replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 72 of 308 (450367)
01-21-2008 5:36 PM
Reply to: Message 71 by ICANT
01-21-2008 5:14 PM


Re: Marketing the product
ICANT writes:
No I am telling you your house is burning down it is over halfway gone. But I am still willing to get you a policy to cover you.
You show me another company that would offer you that kind of policy.
You seem to forget that it was your company that started the fire. Even if the intent was to torch my neighbour Satan, even if it was my choice to build so close to him, it's still your fire that's causing my problem.
Instead of trying to sell me an insurance policy, the honourable approach would be to pay for the damage.

“If you had half a brain, wouldn't you have realized after the second time, that it was you, not God?” -- riVeRraT (see context here)
“The endearing controvertist! One needs to become acute in the ploys of his kind.” -- ThreeDogs

This message is a reply to:
 Message 71 by ICANT, posted 01-21-2008 5:14 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 74 by ICANT, posted 01-21-2008 6:30 PM ringo has replied

ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 73 of 308 (450384)
01-21-2008 6:17 PM
Reply to: Message 66 by Stile
01-21-2008 4:35 PM


Re: Does honour matter?
Hi Stile,
Stile writes:
Fair enough. So, do good and honour matter to you?
Stile where I was raised a man's word was his bond. There are people still there that I would rather have their word than a contract. A man can break a contract. He cannot break his word if he does he loses all honor and respect.
Stiles writes:
Commanded, of course, by the most supreme, all-powerful creator of the universe who knows what's best for everyone.
Nope, the one who died in my place so I would not have to go to the lake of fire. He said "greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for a friend."
Stile writes:
Commandments are always without honour. They remove personal responsibility, and therefore remove any sense of honour.
Why? I don't have to do them if I don't want to. It is still my choice.
Stile writes:
Anyone who understands the concepts. They are objective virtues, once the virtue is known and agreed upon by honest individuals.
Now we are back to man acting out what the first lady ate the fruit to obtain to become as god knowing good and evil.
I always had in the back of my mind what little there is left that the last 5 of the 10 commandment given to the children of Israel was where most of our do good for others come from. They only been around for some 3k years. But maybe I am wrong.
I am not going to get off into all the things that modern man calls honorable that I think has been hatched in the halls of hell itself.
Have fun.

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 66 by Stile, posted 01-21-2008 4:35 PM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 88 by Stile, posted 01-22-2008 12:57 PM ICANT has replied

ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 74 of 308 (450388)
01-21-2008 6:30 PM
Reply to: Message 72 by ringo
01-21-2008 5:36 PM


Re: Marketing the product
Hi Ringo,
Ringo writes:
You seem to forget that it was your company that started the fire. Even if the intent was to torch my neighbour Satan, even if it was my choice to build so close to him, it's still your fire that's causing my problem.
You can't seem to get it. You did not have a choice as to the neighborhood you were born in.
Your ancestor the first man that chose to eat the fruit rather than be alone because the woman had been deceived by the serpent and had eaten and was going to die. He is the one who moved into the devil, satan or whatever's his name is neighborhood. Every human from that time to this have been born in the devils neighborhood.
I am just telling you how you can get out of that trashy neighborhood. Cross the tracks so to speak.
Have fun,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 72 by ringo, posted 01-21-2008 5:36 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 75 by ringo, posted 01-21-2008 6:40 PM ICANT has replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 75 of 308 (450392)
01-21-2008 6:40 PM
Reply to: Message 74 by ICANT
01-21-2008 6:30 PM


Re: Marketing the product
ICANT writes:
You did not have a choice as to the neighborhood you were born in.
The neighbourhood is irrelevant and how I got there is irrelevant. The problem is that your "company" started a fire that threatens to destroy my house. Ethically, your company is responsible for the damage.

“If you had half a brain, wouldn't you have realized after the second time, that it was you, not God?” -- riVeRraT (see context here)
“The endearing controvertist! One needs to become acute in the ploys of his kind.” -- ThreeDogs

This message is a reply to:
 Message 74 by ICANT, posted 01-21-2008 6:30 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 76 by ICANT, posted 01-21-2008 8:22 PM ringo has replied

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