Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
5 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,817 Year: 3,074/9,624 Month: 919/1,588 Week: 102/223 Day: 13/17 Hour: 0/1


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Evidence for the Supernatural
Peter
Member (Idle past 1479 days)
Posts: 2161
From: Cambridgeshire, UK.
Joined: 02-05-2002


Message 2 of 107 (41582)
05-28-2003 7:05 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by truthlover
05-28-2003 3:43 AM


There are undoubtedly many reports of paranormal
activity from around the globe. This is largely discounted
in mainstream science because it cannot be investigated by
standard scientific method (or there are subconscious biases
at work ... it's hard to say which).
What is behind these is up for debate, and without thorough
investigation it would be impossible to say.
In the meantime ... beleive what ever makes you most comfortable,
but have the decency to let others do likewise.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by truthlover, posted 05-28-2003 3:43 AM truthlover has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by Percy, posted 05-28-2003 11:20 AM Peter has replied

  
Peter
Member (Idle past 1479 days)
Posts: 2161
From: Cambridgeshire, UK.
Joined: 02-05-2002


Message 4 of 107 (41677)
05-29-2003 5:15 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by Percy
05-28-2003 11:20 AM


That's more or less what I was trying to say ...
but you said it a lot better

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by Percy, posted 05-28-2003 11:20 AM Percy has not replied

  
Peter
Member (Idle past 1479 days)
Posts: 2161
From: Cambridgeshire, UK.
Joined: 02-05-2002


Message 18 of 107 (44930)
07-03-2003 5:37 AM
Reply to: Message 17 by doctrbill
07-02-2003 1:18 AM


Re: Natural/Supernatural
quote:
Everything thought to be supernatural will, in time, be demonstrably natural
Provided that's a statement of belief I agree.
If you view it as fact you must critically assess the level
of bias it may impose on any data that comes your way otherwise
you are operating exactly like a believer in the supernatural

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by doctrbill, posted 07-02-2003 1:18 AM doctrbill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by doctrbill, posted 07-03-2003 7:56 PM Peter has replied

  
Peter
Member (Idle past 1479 days)
Posts: 2161
From: Cambridgeshire, UK.
Joined: 02-05-2002


Message 22 of 107 (45034)
07-04-2003 4:38 AM
Reply to: Message 21 by doctrbill
07-03-2003 7:56 PM


Re: Natural/Supernatural
I suppose it depends on your world-view.
After all the 'magical practitioner' view magic to be
natural in any case ... it's all part of the universe
it's just that the scope of that universe is somewhat wider
for the 'practitioner' than within more mainstream
worldviews.
If by natural you mean governed by the laws we have so far
uncovered then I disagree ... if on the other hand you mean
that such things can be quantified and their rules of
operation understood (or found to be non-existant) then I
agree ... but then so do believers.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by doctrbill, posted 07-03-2003 7:56 PM doctrbill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by doctrbill, posted 07-04-2003 11:10 PM Peter has replied

  
Peter
Member (Idle past 1479 days)
Posts: 2161
From: Cambridgeshire, UK.
Joined: 02-05-2002


Message 23 of 107 (45035)
07-04-2003 4:45 AM
Reply to: Message 19 by nator
07-03-2003 10:18 AM


Re: Natural/Supernatural
quote:
So, basically, everything that happens might be supernatural, and it's up to the individual to decide if it was or not?
I'd have to say 'yes' to that (unfortunately). Even you have already
done that and your answer is (invariably I would guess) 'No it
was not supernatural.'
We just don't know. Anything else is a matter of belief.
quote:
So, considering that people can convince themselves of just about anything if they want to, there's no real way to tell the difference.
Correct.
As you have pointed out science can only investigate tha
natural, repeatable phenomena of what we view to be the
natural world.
This discussion is heading deeply into belief systems which
by defintion defy support.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by nator, posted 07-03-2003 10:18 AM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by nator, posted 07-04-2003 8:57 AM Peter has replied

  
Peter
Member (Idle past 1479 days)
Posts: 2161
From: Cambridgeshire, UK.
Joined: 02-05-2002


Message 25 of 107 (45062)
07-04-2003 9:09 AM
Reply to: Message 24 by nator
07-04-2003 8:57 AM


Re: Natural/Supernatural
quote:
So, are you saying that nobody knows anything and all perceptions and versions of reality are to be considered equal?
So, the 10 who say they are Elvis really might all be Elvis, and that this is equally likely as all ten of them being crazy?
No. I'm saying that if we have no evidence then the best
we can say is 'I don't know'.
In your Elvis example we have a slightly different situation
in that there can be only one Elvis, therefore 9 are definitely
not Elvis ... without performing some tests based upon a known
Elvisness we cannot comment on whether one of them is or is
not Elvis.
Because we assume that something cannot be the case does
not mean that we are right.
We can, if we investigate sufficently, rule out some possibilities,
and logic (without bias) may be helpful.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by nator, posted 07-04-2003 8:57 AM nator has not replied

  
Peter
Member (Idle past 1479 days)
Posts: 2161
From: Cambridgeshire, UK.
Joined: 02-05-2002


Message 38 of 107 (46314)
07-17-2003 4:42 AM
Reply to: Message 26 by doctrbill
07-04-2003 11:10 PM


Re: Natural/Supernatural
quote:
I do believe that much of what is currently called supernatural is in fact explainable according to modern science. But, I doubt that such things will soon, if ever, be subject to direct observation in the scientific sense. Thus not quanifiable.
It's the 'modern science' part that I disagree with.
It implies that we already know everything there is to know about
the workigns of the universe, and that everything can be explained
by what we already know.
'Future knowledge' is what I mean. At some stage in the future
the things currently viewed as supernatural will be understood.
quote:
Are you saying that believers expect to understand and quantify the mechanism of spiritual gifts? Are you saying that believers are open to proving that spiritual powers are nonexistent?
They beleive that the supernatural is just a common or garden
part of nature, and that it can be understood.
I was more thinking in terms of so-called practitioners than
mainstream religous beleivers.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by doctrbill, posted 07-04-2003 11:10 PM doctrbill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 47 by doctrbill, posted 07-17-2003 11:56 AM Peter has replied

  
Peter
Member (Idle past 1479 days)
Posts: 2161
From: Cambridgeshire, UK.
Joined: 02-05-2002


Message 49 of 107 (46398)
07-18-2003 3:19 AM
Reply to: Message 47 by doctrbill
07-17-2003 11:56 AM


Re: Natural/Supernatural
quote:
By modern science I mean the state of science today. No scientist in his/her right mind would suggest that we already know everything there is to be known.
That's all I mean to object to ... I think there are likely
some aspects of the universe that current scientific knowledge
cannot cover, but that future discoveries, techniques, and theories
will open these 'supernatural' phenomena to us.
I think we probably agree ... just got tangled up in a slight
mis-understanding over the words used to express it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by doctrbill, posted 07-17-2003 11:56 AM doctrbill has not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024