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Author Topic:   fulfilled prophecy - specific examples.
jaywill
Member (Idle past 50 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 256 of 262 (450162)
01-21-2008 1:58 AM
Reply to: Message 255 by PaulK
01-15-2008 1:42 AM


Re: Casting your vote with the unbelievers
Even if we assume that Jesus spoke those words it does not mean that your interpretation - which is strained far beyond the point of reason - has any merit whatsoever. In fact it quite obviously doesn't.

The one with no case is PaulK.

The overall "interpretation" that the audience of Jesus got was that He was teaching that He was God come to earth as a man. The fabrications are PaulK's slippery excuses to portray these teachings as misunderstandings about "assumed" words. And these misinterpretations were inserted afterwards by Christain readers like myself.

Some of the powerful among Christ's religious audience rejected His teaching that He was God come to us as a man. But they understood what He was saying. And for that reason He was persecuted.

PaulK simply among those who reject that He is God come to us as a man, as Jesus taught. He labors hard to dress up his rejection in reasons like "Jesus never said" that He was God come as a man. He tries to dignify his unbelief in reasons like saying "We can only assume that Jesus spoke those words."

I think we have a adaquate record of the words and deeds of Jesus in the New Testament. And we have an adaquate record of what was the response to those words and deeds from various quarters of His overall audience.

The accumulative effect certainly is that He taught and acted like He was the God of the Old Testament come to the earth as a man, transcending His own Sabbath, forgiving sins, raising the dead, lamenting over Jerusalem as her God in the Old Testament, and challenging His detractors to find sin in Him at all. His words are put by Him on the same level as the words of God in the Old Testament. At some times He says His words are more important - "You have heard ... But I say unto you ..."

Rejecting the teaching of Jesus under the disguise that He never said the things or that they were made up by false propogandists latter makes for a flimsy case.

At least the priests had the will to say "What need more do we have for witnesses? You have heard the blasphemy out of His own mouth." We don't see them putting forth various flimsy reasons like "Well, we can only assume that Jesus said these things. These are only faulty interpretations added by His disciples of what we think He said. "

Thier intense opposition to the ministry of Christ was at least more honest and forthcoming.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 255 by PaulK, posted 01-15-2008 1:42 AM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 257 by PaulK, posted 01-21-2008 2:50 AM jaywill has responded

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 14819
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.5


Message 257 of 262 (450166)
01-21-2008 2:50 AM
Reply to: Message 256 by jaywill
01-21-2008 1:58 AM


Re: Casting your vote with the unbelievers
quote:

The one with no case is PaulK.

An obvious falsehood. You failed to make a case and then decided that you had nothing more to say, In doing so you implicitly admitted that you had no case.

quote:

The overall "interpretation" that the audience of Jesus got was that He was teaching that He was God come to earth as a man

You have yet to produce any significant evidence to support this assertion.

quote:

I think we have a adaquate record of the words and deeds of Jesus in the New Testament. And we have an adaquate record of what was the response to those words and deeds from various quarters of His overall audience.

And until you answer the reasons to doubt this all you have is an unsupported opinion. The fact that we have no truly contemporary accounts and no accounts from neutral or hostile sources are in themselves good reason to doubt such a claim.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 256 by jaywill, posted 01-21-2008 1:58 AM jaywill has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 258 by jaywill, posted 01-21-2008 7:10 AM PaulK has responded

    
jaywill
Member (Idle past 50 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 258 of 262 (450173)
01-21-2008 7:10 AM
Reply to: Message 257 by PaulK
01-21-2008 2:50 AM


Re: Casting your vote with the unbelievers
And until you answer the reasons to doubt this all you have is an unsupported opinion. The fact that we have no truly contemporary accounts and no accounts from neutral or hostile sources are in themselves good reason to doubt such a claim.

Extra biblical historical references to Jesus:

Josephus (Jewish Historian) A.D. 37-100

Cornelius Tacitus (Roman Historian) A.D. 55? -after 117)

Lucian (Greek Satirist) ( 2nd century A.D. )

Suetonius (Roman Hostorian) c. A.D. 120

Pliny the Younger (writing to the Roman emperor) c. A.D. 112

Thallus (Samaritan born historian) c. A.D. 52

Julius Africanus (refering to the dark day of the crucifixion of Jesus via Thallus) c/ A.D. 221

Letter of Mara Bar-Serapion after A.D. 73

The Jewish Talmud (completed by A.D. 500)

All the above "secular" historical references to Jesus Christ. Talmudic references we would have to classify as non-Christian religious references.

Now I expect that PaulK will get busy moving the bar of secular attestation to the historicity of Jesus around and disqualifying each of these witnesses.

1.) Possibly he will say that Christians invented them

2.) Possibly he will stress that none of them believe things identical to the disciples of Jesus therefore they are not proofs of the claims of Jesus.

3.) Possibly he'll object that no one was there in "real time" writing down at the very moment what Jesus was saying. Therefore bad memories have erased all the true things said by Jesus forever.

Anyway, the New Testament contains all the witness I need to decide what I should believe about Jesus.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 257 by PaulK, posted 01-21-2008 2:50 AM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 259 by PaulK, posted 01-21-2008 7:42 AM jaywill has responded
 Message 260 by jar, posted 01-21-2008 10:25 AM jaywill has not yet responded

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 14819
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.5


Message 259 of 262 (450176)
01-21-2008 7:42 AM
Reply to: Message 258 by jaywill
01-21-2008 7:10 AM


Re: Casting your vote with the unbelievers
Jay you've managed to miss a possibility. I can point out that we are not arguing over whether Jesus existed. We are arguing over whether we have a good account of his life and deeds. None of the non-Christian references you list are either truly contemporary or offer any real details of what Jesus did and said.

There is no need to go into the other problems of the list. (Which I recognise as the standard apologetic list of sources.)

quote:

Anyway, the New Testament contains all the witness I need to decide what I should believe about Jesus.

And your use of the list of sources shows how worthless that is.

Edited by PaulK, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 258 by jaywill, posted 01-21-2008 7:10 AM jaywill has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 261 by jaywill, posted 01-22-2008 7:16 AM PaulK has responded

    
jar
Member
Posts: 30936
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 260 of 262 (450210)
01-21-2008 10:25 AM
Reply to: Message 258 by jaywill
01-21-2008 7:10 AM


Let's try truth for a change.
Also Jay, the reference to the Talmud is just another example of misrepresentation through quote mining. It is NOT a historical reference to Jesus Christ. It is during a Talmudic Discourse on proper legal procedures for an execution, is mentioned in a "What if" example and uses the generic name Jesus with no qualifiers.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
This message is a reply to:
 Message 258 by jaywill, posted 01-21-2008 7:10 AM jaywill has not yet responded

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 50 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 261 of 262 (450479)
01-22-2008 7:16 AM
Reply to: Message 259 by PaulK
01-21-2008 7:42 AM


Re: Casting your vote with the unbelievers
As I wrote, basically PaulK's response is some variation of #2 and #3.

2.) Possibly he will stress that none of them believe things identical to the disciples of Jesus therefore they are not proofs of the claims of Jesus.

3.) Possibly he'll object that no one was there in "real time" writing down at the very moment what Jesus was saying. Therefore bad memories have erased all the true things said by Jesus forever.

I suspect the mentioned "problems" will include standard response #1.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 259 by PaulK, posted 01-21-2008 7:42 AM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 262 by PaulK, posted 01-22-2008 7:43 AM jaywill has not yet responded

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 14819
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.5


Message 262 of 262 (450482)
01-22-2008 7:43 AM
Reply to: Message 261 by jaywill
01-22-2008 7:16 AM


Re: Casting your vote with the unbelievers
quote:

As I wrote, basically PaulK's response is some variation of #2 and #3.

No, it isn't.

quote:

2.) Possibly he will stress that none of them believe things identical to the disciples of Jesus therefore they are not proofs of the claims of Jesus.

I said nothing about the writer's beliefs at all. Nor did I insist on exact identity of beleif. What I did point out is that none of the non-Christian documents referenced actually offers much of an account of Jesus' words and deeds that would allow us to judge the accuracy of the Gospels!

So I did not use 2) at all.

quote:

3.) Possibly he'll object that no one was there in "real time" writing down at the very moment what Jesus was saying. Therefore bad memories have erased all the true things said by Jesus forever.

I made no requirement to be written down at the very moment Jesus was speaking. The original comment referred to "true contemporary" accounts and I have not gone beyond that. Jay clearly intended to assert that I would tighten the requirements to unreasonably exclude documents - and that did not happen at all (indeed any reasonable person would see that it is just another of Jay's smears).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 261 by jaywill, posted 01-22-2008 7:16 AM jaywill has not yet responded

    
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