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Author Topic:   Honour Amongst Christians
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 76 of 308 (450433)
01-21-2008 8:22 PM
Reply to: Message 75 by ringo
01-21-2008 6:40 PM


Re: Marketing the product
Ringo writes:
The neighbourhood is irrelevant and how I got there is irrelevant. The problem is that your "company" started a fire that threatens to destroy my house. Ethically, your company is responsible for the damage.
Giving your parents the benefit of the doubt I will say you were born on the right side of the tracks. Not in the devils neighborhood. When you reached the age you understood and knew right from wrong and you heard the Word you chose the other side of the tracks for whatever reason you wanted too use. In that case you invaded the devils territory.
On the other hand If your parents were living in that neighborhood and brought you into it don't blame my boss for your problems. Blame your parents. Now it might be they need to blame their parents. etc.
But right now you don't have anyone to blame but your self you can bail out anytime and you know how to do it.
Have fun,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 75 by ringo, posted 01-21-2008 6:40 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 79 by ringo, posted 01-21-2008 11:23 PM ICANT has replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 77 of 308 (450447)
01-21-2008 10:34 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by ICANT
01-18-2008 8:17 PM


Re: Understanding the basics
quote:
Now you make up your own rules if you want too.
Everybody has, and always has, "made up their own rules".
What, do you actually think you know the mind of God and what He wants, or something?
Edited by nator, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by ICANT, posted 01-18-2008 8:17 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 84 by ICANT, posted 01-22-2008 12:41 PM nator has replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 78 of 308 (450448)
01-21-2008 10:41 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by ICANT
01-21-2008 10:28 AM


Re: Good is greater than God
quote:
News Flash: once in the lake of fire you don't get out to spend time with God. Sorry.
Then God is nothing but a vidictive, sadistic asshole that has far more in common with the vengeful, spiteful, petulant pagan gods of old than the "God is love" characterization modern Christians provide.
Some horrible, abusive parent God is, able to inflict excruciating torture and agony on His children and not be fussed.
Your God seems to be a sociopath.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by ICANT, posted 01-21-2008 10:28 AM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 90 by ICANT, posted 01-22-2008 1:20 PM nator has replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 79 of 308 (450452)
01-21-2008 11:23 PM
Reply to: Message 76 by ICANT
01-21-2008 8:22 PM


ICANT writes:
But right now you don't have anyone to blame but your self you can bail out anytime and you know how to do it.
Again, whether or not I can bail out is irrelevant. The point here is that the one who started the fire is responsible for the damage. It's dishonorable to make excuses for the firebug.

“If you had half a brain, wouldn't you have realized after the second time, that it was you, not God?” -- riVeRraT (see context here)
“The endearing controvertist! One needs to become acute in the ploys of his kind.” -- ThreeDogs

This message is a reply to:
 Message 76 by ICANT, posted 01-21-2008 8:22 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 98 by ICANT, posted 01-22-2008 2:38 PM ringo has replied

iano
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 80 of 308 (450476)
01-22-2008 6:16 AM
Reply to: Message 58 by Stile
01-21-2008 2:03 PM


Re: Can't ask for honour
iano writes:
Is the "ask" coming from the free will of the person themselves? Or has it been pressed out of them by Gods action upon them?
Stile writes:
I would say it's still free will. This person may be fully convinced of their destination and still choose to accept it. If they believe they are that rotten, it's possible they may believe they deserve the fate.
I would have thought any definition of free will would include the notion that a person is faced with some kind of balanced choice. And that they could choose either way. A person trapped in a blazing room and who jumps out of the window of the 43rd floor cannot be said to be making a free willed choice to jump. Have you ever stood close to an approaching fire? The fire presses you back - you have no choice to stand your ground. You must jump out the window.
Let's suppose the conviction of God is equivilent to a fire. And that because of it you will ask for forgiveness (jump). No choice about it at that point.
quote:
No, the gift is not given completely freely if one has to ask for it. Regardless if that asking is stressed on them by God or not. The only way a gift is given freely (and in an honourable way) is if it didn't have to be asked for
Does the above change your view? Let's say a person wants to give a gift to a child - but the childs hands hang down by their side. The gift cannot be received. The giver takes the childs hands, lifts them up from their side and places the gift in them. Are you saying that this action on the part of the giver destroys the gift giving? Hands lifted by the giver, asking pressed out of you by the giver. It's the same thing.
Edited by iano, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 58 by Stile, posted 01-21-2008 2:03 PM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 81 by jar, posted 01-22-2008 10:41 AM iano has not replied
 Message 82 by LinearAq, posted 01-22-2008 11:54 AM iano has replied
 Message 89 by Stile, posted 01-22-2008 1:12 PM iano has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 81 of 308 (450503)
01-22-2008 10:41 AM
Reply to: Message 80 by iano
01-22-2008 6:16 AM


Re: Can't ask for honour
Does the above change your view? Let's say a person wants to give a gift to a child - but the childs hands hang down by their side. The gift cannot be received. The giver takes the childs hands, lifts them up from their side and places the gift in them. Are you saying that this action on the part of the giver destroys the gift giving? Hands lifted by the giver, asking pressed out of you by the giver. It's the same thing.
Of course it is not the same thing.
Salvation is NOT something the child needs to reach for, it requires nothing on the part of the child, it is totally within the purview of the giver, just as a blessing or curse is in the purview of the giver.
All GOD needs to do is NOT damn someone. No actions are required on the part of the person NOT damned.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 80 by iano, posted 01-22-2008 6:16 AM iano has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 83 by Phat, posted 01-22-2008 12:04 PM jar has replied

LinearAq
Member (Idle past 4675 days)
Posts: 598
From: Pocomoke City, MD
Joined: 11-03-2004


Message 82 of 308 (450515)
01-22-2008 11:54 AM
Reply to: Message 80 by iano
01-22-2008 6:16 AM


Belief changes the equation
iano writes:
I would have thought any definition of free will would include the notion that a person is faced with some kind of balanced choice. And that they could choose either way. A person trapped in a blazing room and who jumps out of the window of the 43rd floor cannot be said to be making a free willed choice to jump. Have you ever stood close to an approaching fire? The fire presses you back - you have no choice to stand your ground. You must jump out the window.
Let's suppose the conviction of God is equivilent to a fire. And that because of it you will ask for forgiveness (jump). No choice about it at that point.
Do you believe coercion to be dishonorable?
Do you believe that God will throw into Hell those who don't accept His Son as savior?
Once you believe in this particular God and that He will do what He says, you are now being coerced into accepting His Son.
The Word says: "Accept Jesus or Go To Hell" (my paraphrase).
Sounds like coercion to me. Very similar to "Buy my life insurance or I will burn down your house".
I guess coercion is an honorable tactic according to you.
Edited by LinearAq, : Capitalizing pronouns that refer to iano's God.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 80 by iano, posted 01-22-2008 6:16 AM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 131 by iano, posted 01-24-2008 8:09 AM LinearAq has replied

Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 83 of 308 (450517)
01-22-2008 12:04 PM
Reply to: Message 81 by jar
01-22-2008 10:41 AM


All God Needs To Do...
Jar writes:
All GOD needs to do is NOT damn someone. No actions are required on the part of the person NOT damned.
So what happens to the Goats? Who damns them?
NIV writes:
Matt 25:41-43
41 "Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.'

This message is a reply to:
 Message 81 by jar, posted 01-22-2008 10:41 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 93 by jar, posted 01-22-2008 1:43 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 99 by ICANT, posted 01-22-2008 2:41 PM Phat has not replied

ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 84 of 308 (450520)
01-22-2008 12:41 PM
Reply to: Message 77 by nator
01-21-2008 10:34 PM


Re: Understanding the basics
Hi nator,
nator writes:
Everybody has, and always has, "made up their own rules".
I would not say everybody but I would say most everybody has.
Guess what just because they made up their own rules that did not change Gods rules.
nator writes:
What, do you actually think you know the mind of God and what He wants, or something?
Isai 55:9 (KJV) For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.
According to Isaiah nope to the mind. Yep to what He wants I got His List of wants, do's and don'ts.
Have fun,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 77 by nator, posted 01-21-2008 10:34 PM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 111 by nator, posted 01-22-2008 5:37 PM ICANT has replied

Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


Message 85 of 308 (450522)
01-22-2008 12:44 PM
Reply to: Message 69 by ICANT
01-21-2008 4:57 PM


Re: So "ask" doesn't mean "ask"?
Hello ICANT, hope things are well today.
ICANT writes:
I think many times I and others use accept and ask in interchangeably when trying to point out something.
This may be the only spot of confusion I have. I can't think of any scenario where accept and ask can be used interchangeably. Accepting is receiving a gift that's been granted. Asking is requesting for a gift to be granted. I have no problem with accepting, only asking.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 69 by ICANT, posted 01-21-2008 4:57 PM ICANT has not replied

Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


Message 86 of 308 (450525)
01-22-2008 12:47 PM
Reply to: Message 70 by Phat
01-21-2008 4:59 PM


Re: A Side Comment
Phat writes:
IF God foreknows us, created us, and knows every quirk and idiosyncrasy of human nature that we have, would He not then know that we would be likely to have discussions such as this and ask honest questions about the validity of His instructions? (Even questioning the validity of the instructions themselves?)
Yes, He would. As far as I can understand, anyway.
Is not honor equitable with honesty? And again....if we were a defective product and He foreknew that many of us would reject blind faith, why the whole lake of fire gig? Why not simply have us cease to exist once we die? After all, He is God and is capable of anything, right?
Yes, honour requires honesty. And in this sense the lake of fire doesn't make sense. In fact, judging anyone on their belief in Him doesn't even make sense. The only judgement that does make sense is on whether or not we're trying to be good people.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 70 by Phat, posted 01-21-2008 4:59 PM Phat has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 87 by macaroniandcheese, posted 01-22-2008 12:56 PM Stile has replied
 Message 97 by ICANT, posted 01-22-2008 2:33 PM Stile has seen this message but not replied

macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3927 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 87 of 308 (450526)
01-22-2008 12:56 PM
Reply to: Message 86 by Stile
01-22-2008 12:47 PM


Re: A Side Comment
Yes, He would. As far as I can understand, anyway.
i thought i'd bring this up, and i apologize for failing to do so earlier.
in at least some branches of islam (i'm slowly learning about it.), the "fall" was no fall at all, but a test provided by god to see if humanity was independent enough. the story is that god created several "first couples" who were imperfect or were automotons or what have you. it was adam and eve who were the first pair to exercise freewill and all those other magical things they did. they were immediately forgiven for their transgression and it does not carry. rather, it is the tendency to freewill which "weakens" us and we are to fully embrace our humanness and also strive for right. now, again, i don't know a lot about it, but it would follow, thus, that salvation then is actually dependent on things we did and our willingness to accept our flaws, rather than someone's snack 6000 years ago.
this demonstrates a distinct understanding of god, and potentially a more attractive one. but i think it's important to combine and reconcile these people who claim to know the same god. btw, the majority of muslims believe that anyone who comes to god by whatever name or whatever means will be accepted as long as they live righteously. combining that with the christian concepts of grace, and you have a sexy, sexy god.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 86 by Stile, posted 01-22-2008 12:47 PM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 91 by Stile, posted 01-22-2008 1:23 PM macaroniandcheese has replied

Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


Message 88 of 308 (450528)
01-22-2008 12:57 PM
Reply to: Message 73 by ICANT
01-21-2008 6:17 PM


Re: Does honour matter?
ICANT writes:
Stile writes:
Commandments are always without honour. They remove personal responsibility, and therefore remove any sense of honour.
Why? I don't have to do them if I don't want to. It is still my choice.
Commandments do not remove free will, they simply remove honour. You may still make your decision to follow the commandment, but it is those who do the same thing regardless of the commandment that have honour, not those who do it because they are commanded.
In Message 63, you said:
quote:
But to tell you the truth I do not think of doing those things because they might be good or honorable.
Jesus gave me 2 commandments that I am supposed to try to govern my life by after I accepted God's invitation to come live in His Estate.
This implies that you do things not because they are good or honourable, but because you have accepted God's invitation and are trying to keep His commandments.
Which basically means you do things because you're commanded. Unless I'm interpreting you wrong?
I am not going to get off into all the things that modern man calls honorable that I think has been hatched in the halls of hell itself.
You don't have to. We're not talking about "all the things modern man calls honourable". We're talking about one specific thing. One specific thing identified at the beginning of this thread:
quote:
By honour, I mean "that which tries to help those less-fortunate and looks for nothing in return".
I don't see anything "hatched in the halls of hell" here. Do you not find this statement honourable?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 73 by ICANT, posted 01-21-2008 6:17 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 94 by ICANT, posted 01-22-2008 1:58 PM Stile has replied

Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


Message 89 of 308 (450531)
01-22-2008 1:12 PM
Reply to: Message 80 by iano
01-22-2008 6:16 AM


Re: Can't ask for honour
iano writes:
I would have thought any definition of free will would include the notion that a person is faced with some kind of balanced choice. And that they could choose either way.
The second part, not the first part. I have free will, and I'm faced with plenty of unbalanced choices everyday. None of those choices remove my free will. Sometimes I choose the one that's apparently "less attractive", just because I can.
A person trapped in a blazing room and who jumps out of the window of the 43rd floor cannot be said to be making a free willed choice to jump. Have you ever stood close to an approaching fire? The fire presses you back - you have no choice to stand your ground. You must jump out the window.
Sure they're making a free willed choice to jump. Just because you can't stand close to an approaching fire doesn't mean nobody can. And those with something important enough to lose in that fire certainly do choose to run straight into it. Lots of them die in the fire rather than jumping out the window. How is that not free choice? But this doesn't really matter.
Let's suppose the conviction of God is equivilent to a fire. And that because of it you will ask for forgiveness (jump). No choice about it at that point.
Why don't we just suppose what you want to say. "God removes our free will". Is that better? 'Cause you havn't yet come up with a scenario that actually removes free choice. I certainly can assume that God removes our choice, if you want me to.
Does the above change your view?
Of course not. Where's the honour in choosing something that you're forced into? There's no honour there. And doesn't change the fact that:
Stile writes:
The only way a gift is given freely (and in an honourable way) is if it didn't have to be asked for.
iano writes:
Let's say a person wants to give a gift to a child - but the childs hands hang down by their side. The gift cannot be received. The giver takes the childs hands, lifts them up from their side and places the gift in them. Are you saying that this action on the part of the giver destroys the gift giving? Hands lifted by the giver, asking pressed out of you by the giver. It's the same thing.
No, I don't see anything wrong with this situation at all. But I don't see how it represents anything in reality, or what we're talking about.
I have a problem with the thought of God granting salvation only to those who ask. And I certainly do have free-will to ask for it or not. And my hands work just fine. I'm really confused about what you're trying to talk about here...
If you're trying to somehow say that God grants salvation to anyone he wants to, regardless of whether or not they ask or believe in Him. Then I agree that this is very honourable and I think it describes a very righteous God.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 80 by iano, posted 01-22-2008 6:16 AM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 103 by ICANT, posted 01-22-2008 2:55 PM Stile has seen this message but not replied
 Message 132 by iano, posted 01-24-2008 8:56 AM Stile has replied

ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 90 of 308 (450532)
01-22-2008 1:20 PM
Reply to: Message 78 by nator
01-21-2008 10:41 PM


Re: Good is greater than God
Hi nator,
nator writes:
Some horrible, abusive parent God is,
I have no idea where you got the idea that God is your parent. Your earthly mother and father were your parents.
When you reached the point the man and woman did in the garden of Eden when they ate the fruit of the tree of good and evil. If you did not at that time receive Jesus Christ as your savior you were promoted to being responsible for yourself. Up until that time you were protected just as they were in the garden. From that moment on you were of your father the devil. You could choose to live in his house and share his fate if you so desire. All you have to do is live the good life, make your own rules, if it feels good do it. Now God had noting at all to do with you being in the position. Your ancestors caused it and now you have chosen to continue to follow in their path.
God did make a way you could escape. You must be born again. That is how you get into God's family. It cost Him a price that you will only know if you reach the lake of fire. As the old saying goes the ball is in your court.
nator if you were traveling down a mountain road at a pretty good clip you were late for an appointment so you were hurrying. There is a bridge across the gorge that you must travel over to get to your destination. One problem the bridge is out it is 2000 feet to the bottom of the gorge. I stop you a mile before you get to where the bridge is supposed to be. I say nator the bridge is out you must go another way. You say I don't believe you that is just a myth. You step on the gas pedal and speed away toward the gorge.
You are mad because I made you later by delaying you. You go even faster you come around the corner you see the bridge is out you apply the brakes but you can't stop you fly off into eternity.
Now I got a question: Whose fault is it that you plunged to your death?
Is it God because He built the gorge by putting the mountains there?
Your parents because you were born? Or little ole me that warned you not to go that way.
The answer is none of the above.
Who or what is left? only nator is to blame.
The same applies if you go into the lake of fire.
Have fun,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by nator, posted 01-21-2008 10:41 PM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 95 by jar, posted 01-22-2008 2:03 PM ICANT has replied
 Message 113 by nator, posted 01-22-2008 5:44 PM ICANT has replied

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