Honour Amongst Christians

Hi Rahvin, What is it with the blame game?I have never seen so much wanting to blame somebody else for our actions since the day I had to substitute in a kindergarden class.Rahvin help me out here a little. That means here comes one of my hypothetical things.If we were at the beach and there was a dock where you could go way out in the water. You had went to the end and I was sitting there enjoying the breeze reading the paper. You dive in the water and begin to swim. You swim around for a while and all of a sudden you get a cramp, you can't swim you can't help yourself. I see you and there is a life preserver there with a rope on it. I look at it then I look back to you and sit back down and begin to read my paper. You drown. Now if that was the case I can see where I contributed to your plight. Your family could blame me because if I had thrown you the preserver you would have been OK.Now lets look at this a little different.I see you in trouble. If I don't help. you will drown as there is no one else there no other way. I throw the life preserver to you it is easily reachable all you have to do is reach out and take hold of it. But no you push it away instead.My question to you and anyone else that would like to chime in.Is it my fault if you drown? News Flash: The moment He said "It is finished" He was standing with the father in heaven.His resurrection was to show the devil that he had lost, and to assure me that If I trust Him I will overcome the grave also that the grave is not the end as many would like for it to be. What makes you think it is a threat?It is no threat it is a certainty. You are already in the lake of fire you just haven't arrived yet. John 3:18God didn't have to but He did the honorable thing and threw out the lifeline the rest is up to you.Have fun,

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"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

That's what I've been saying. You, on the other hand, have been saying that some long-gone ancestor of mine made a decision that doomed me to a fiery hell.I'm just saying that I don't find your story remotely plausible. And even if it was plausible, the god you describe isn't remotely honourable. Even if you're right about him, I don't want to be on his side. To paraphrase Satan, it's more honourable to burn than to grovel.

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“If you had half a brain, wouldn't you have realized after the second time, that it was you, not God?” -- riVeRraT (see context here)“The endearing controvertist! One needs to become acute in the ploys of his kind.” -- ThreeDogs

I see no reason why, if a god existed, it couldn't be something like that. I would not be inclined to worship such a being though.

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I am a seeker of the truth whether you believe it or not. I studied Greek and Hebrew the original ones the early scriptures were in. I came to some conclusions. I examined the Bible and I found it to be truthful enough for me.

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Right.So, you think you know the will of God.

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The only part of God's creation that He is responsible for being in the lake of fire is the devil and his angels.

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1) Who created the devil and his angels?2) I thought that it was God who sent people to hell for not believing in Him.

I agree. Although I would change your last sentence to say "Everything you do is your choice." But that's just me being nit-picky. So again, by "apply" we don't really mean "apply". There is no positive action of requesting involved. Strange terminology in this theology, but I may be starting to understand what's going on. Well, thank-you. I think it's only fair to point out that this is what people mean when they say "I'm trying to be a good and righteous person". They mean they understand they're not good, or righteous, they understand they're undeserving of any rewards (especially one as huge as eternal salvation).If this is what God is hoping we're capable of, He is indeed a noble and honourable God.

For our actions? Are you kidding me? It is the position of Christians that even newborns who have committed no sin of their own are still guilty because of a 6000-year-old ancestor who ate a fruit, and so deserve to burn for eternity.Aside from that, if your god created the lake of fire, he is responsible for every single person he sends there, even if you believe his reasons are justified. That's not a very good analogy for the Christian position. At the very least, to make this more accurate you would have needed to have created the ocean, forced me to go swimming, and caused the cramp - in which case, despite throwing a life preserver, yes, you would be responsible for my death.If god is the one who makes the rules, created Hell, and created humanity with full knowledge ahead of time that his creations would wind up being tortured forever because of the rules and place he created and the way he created us, he's responsible for all of it. So all the stuff about "he died for your sins" is irrelevant then? When I was a Christian, I was taught that Jesus took all of the sins onto himself when he died and paid the price for all of us with a divine sacrifice, paralleling the animal sacrifices that had previously been used to wash away sin and making the sacrifice perpetual for all who believe in him.If that's the Christian position, then the "Sacrifice" was meaningless because Jesus knew he'd wake up three days later, go to heaven, and be worshipped for the next few thousand years as an aspect of god himself.Oh...and the "It is finished" thing? That's only in one of the Gospels. One of the other one paints a very different picture: "Father, why have you forsaken me?" Just another one of those inconsistencies. If I'm holding a gun to your head, start to squeeze the trigger, and tell you I'll move the gun away from you if you do what I say...is that a threat, or is that a certainty? I mean, you're already in the line of fire, the trigger just hasn't been pulled all the way yet. I don't have to, but I'm offering you a chance to avoid being shot, and the rest is up to you.Demanding obedience or even just good behavior on such a basis is inherently immoral and dishonorable.See the parallel?No, you probably don't. Oh well.

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When you know you're going to wake up in three days, dying is not a sacrifice. It's a painful inconvenience.

I will have to quit being so lazy. I should have used: Everything anyone does is their choice. Where I live everyone would have known that is what I meant. Stile God knows the thought and intent of our mind. Emphasis on intent.There is no paperwork to fill out, as in a job applicaton.
When you fill out the paperwork for a job you are expressing a desire to get a job.
When a person relizes their condition.
Can't afford what God is offering. Line one your statement.
Can't earn what God is offering. Line two you statement.
Don't deserve what God is offering. Line two your statement.
But truly desires what God is offering Line three your statement.
They have now made applicaton for what God is offering.
Then if they are willing to receive what God is offering. Line three your statement.
They then are in possession of what God is offering. Which is eternal life. .I truly wish I could believe this was everybody's intent when they say I am trying to be a good and righteous person. But the majority are saying I am doing the best I can God and you should. accept that. The Pharisees, and the rich young ruler are good examples of this. Maybe I should include Cain here. The manufacturer knows what the product is capable of.
It is His desire that all achieve the limit of their capabilities.
There is only one problem with that. He gave us the ability to chose whether we want to succeed or not.I think God is most honorable in what He wants us to achieve in this life here on earth.
I think we would have accomplished more if He had not given us the choice of not doing.
But then that would have made Him a dishonorable God.Sincerely,

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"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

Hi Ravhin, I have no idea what Christians you are talking about.I believe and teach: A person when they reach the age that they come to the knowledge of good and evil they become responsible for themselves. Some never reach this point due to mental problems.When a person comes to the knowledge of good and evil as the first man and woman did in the garden and become responsible for themselves they are separated from God because of the decision that the first man made to eat the fruit and become as gods. When the first man made this decision he was kicked out of God's estate. None of His descendants have any right or claim to that estate. I can agree with that.My God did create the lake of fire for the devil and his angels. Matt. 25:41
The only beings God has determined will be in the lake of fire is the devil and his angels.Your ancestor is responsible for you being in the position you are in but you are responsible for remaining in that condition. God had nothing to do with it other than to give man the choice of eating the fruit from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. You can't blame God for his decision but I know you will.Everyone's decisions today determines their tomorrow if it gets here. I have no idea what you were taught or why. I do know it was what somebody had made a decision to teach. You can't blame God for what they taught.But Jesus did take all our sins upon Himself and paid the price required to purchase us out of slavery that our ancestor had sold us into when he willfully disobeyed God. If that is all there was to it I would quite agree with your assessment.But here you are treating Jesus as a mortal human. He was God in the flesh. There was darkness from noon until three in the afternoon because God had turned His back on His Son because He could not have sin in His presence. God the Father and God the Son who had never been separated were separated because Jesus took my sin (and everybody's)
on himself.The physical pain was for us because we understand that. The spiritual pain of being separated is what purchased my freedom from slavery that my ancestor had sold me into when he willfully disobeyed God.Jesus said: "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? I answer because you took my sin away. Thank you. I agree and God agrees.He does not demand your obedience.He just offers you an option. You are headed to the lake of fire because your ancestor sold you into slavery to the devil. You have not made alternate arrangements as of yet.He offers you an alternative. He offers you a full pardon all you have to do is accept it.But that is entirely up to you.I think that is very honorable.
If He did not offer that opportunity I would say He was very dishonorable.But if you so desire you can continue to blame God just like most people want to blame somebody for their problems instead of take responsibility for themselves.It would be very honorable for everyone to take responsibility for themselves.Have fun,

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"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

Hi nator, (1) God created the devil and his angels.
{2) A lot of people have that Idea but I don't find it in the Bible.I do find where God created a man. He gave this man the ability to choose to eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil.He gave the man the choice of eating the fruit and dying or not eating the fruit and living. The man decided he wanted to be like God and know good and evil as the devil had promised speaking through the serpent.Because of this disobedience man was separated from God. Death = Separation. Kicked out of God's estate.Now he is a resident of the devils estate. The earth is the devil's kingdom at the present.Because of this all this man's descendants are separated from God and doomed to the lake of fire.But my God is very honorable.He loves mankind and don't want him to suffer the consequences of the first man's disobedience.So God offer's everyone a full pardon. I think this is very honorable.All man has to do is realize his condition, believe God will give him a pardon then accept it.The offer is to everyone. You can't buy it. You can't earn it. All you can do is accept it or reject it.How can any reasonable person reject such an offer?Upon rejecting the offer how can anyone continue to blame God if they end up in the lake of fire?Have fun,

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"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

Yes. But you shouldn't confuse a person at the point of no return with the person who is not there yet. The person who is convinced (who has no choice but to jump) is not the same as a person who is not convinced (and can chose to avoid being convinced).A person who choses to evade conviction will never jump out any windows. The above might require that you modify your view. I could have avoided being exposed to that which resulted in my being convinced of my position before God. All I had to do was continue to suppress the truth that God revealed to me (as he reveals to everyone). Sure, everyone suppresses it to a greater or lesser degree - the question is, will a person suppress it until it is too late. Until the point where God says (paraphrased) "Enough is enough - thy will be done". Coercion you were free to escape from is no coercion at all.

Okay. Lets agree on a free willed choice being faced with options and that you can pick from those options. I wasn't trying to stretch the picture to cover all possible events. Generally speaking, a raging fire will compel people to jump out 43rd storey building. That's compelling enough to dispel with notions of free choice for our purposes. The picture was only meant to illustrate "a person asking God because they are pushed by God to do so" rather than "a person asking because they have a free willed choice". How this works further is explained below a little. The post to Linear AQ above deals with this. Suffice to say the scenario at the point of asking is one of complete and utter conviction (however you want to picture it). And that if completely convinced you are not faced with a free-willed option anymore - you will ask.But hang on! Your being convinced WILL ensure you ask for forgiveness. And asking for forgiveness (provided the conviction is due to Gods action on you) WILL ensure your justification before God. And your being considered justified before God WILL result in your salvation! It should be clear then that receipt of this gift occurs at the point of conviction - given that subsequent events follow assuredly and automatically as a consequence of you being convinced. The area to look at then is not the asking but the conviction. Where does will work in this scenario...? Hopefully you will see now that "the asking" occurs automatically as a consequence of conviction - which shifts the problem you might have back a little.Put it this way thus. Have you got a problem with God granting salvation only to those who become convinced by God? For if convinced > ask for forgiveness > justified > saved. Before answering, consider that a person can avoid being brought to the point of conviction by exercising their will. The question becomes this one: Have you a problem with God granting salvation only to those how don't exercise their will to the point of final rejecting his attempt to convince them?God attempts to convince. But he permits a persons will to be exercised so as to reject his attempt to convince. Is this not honourable on the part of God? We have seen the auto-consequence of conviction. What I am saying is that God attempts to lift your hands to receive his gift. You are free to resist his attempt to lift your hands. You can hold your hands behind your back. You can wrest them free of his many attempts to lift them. You do this. If you don't resist finally, he will manage to raise your hands and will drop this gift into them. The gift is called conviction.And the only thing preventing you receiving it is your will exercised against it - you don't have to exercise your will for it, indeed you cannot. You might say that "everyone will be saved except those who will it not"Edited by iano, : No reason given.

Don't worry about it Like I said, I was being nit-picky. I knew what you likely meant, I just wanted to make sure. Anyone who says they're trying to be righteous and also says this is being a hypocrite. Righteous people do not demand that anyone accepts them. But it doesn't really matter, it's not for us to decide, God will know. I feel like we're not on the same page. But maybe we are. I just don't want to accidentally slip something past that you don't think is in there. I know I've stated I'm assuming God exists and that He is all-powerful earlier in the thread. But at this point it's really hard to show you a "truely how I feel" stance and still assume those points when I don't truely feel that way. Let's take another look at what I said: Notice I didn't even use the word "God" in there. I'm only talking about salvation. To make it clearer, I'll reword it:I do not want to buy salvation from anyone who can sell it, I know I can't afford it.
I do not want to earn salvation from anyone who can grant it, I know I'm not worthy of it.
I would certainly accept salvation from anyone who has the ability to grant it to me in the form of a free gift.This is how I feel. If God is the being who can grant this gift, then I'm certainly talking about God. But as far as my statement goes, it stands without formally acknowledging God.I don't see how forcing someone to believe it's God and only God who's capable of this is an honourable thing.That is to say, this God would have given me my gifts of reasoning. My reasonging tells me this God doesn't even exist. God cannot expect me to be dishonest to the gifts He bestowed upon me. Therefore, in order for me to honour the gifts God has given me, I cannot believe in Him. It would be dishonourable for me to lie to myself and the reasoning skills given to me by God. Am I doomed to not get salvation because I'm honouring the gifts given to me by God?I'm not saying that God is being dishonourable (if He's giving the gift, He can use whatever restrictions He'd like). I'm more focused on me being dishonourable. How can I lie to myself in order to gain something? That doesn't sound honourable at all.

I really can't make any sense of most of your post to me. If you can rephrase in another way, that might help.But maybe it doesn't matter, because I do understand what you're saying here: Especially the last sentence:

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You might say that "everyone will be saved except those who will it not"

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I don't have any problem with this stance at all. I don't know of anyone who would "will it not". And I certainly don't. I just don't explicitly request for salavation, but I have nothing against it, and I'd certainly receive it if the gift was given freely.I don't think anyone would "will it not", really.

Okay. Mostly what I was dealing with was your hanging up on you "having to ask for a gift". It appeared to be an obstacle for you. I was simply pointing out that you're objecting in the wrong place. What happens is that God has to compel you to ask for forgiveness. And the way he does this is by convincing you that you need it. The gift transaction occurs at the point of his convincing you. You don't have to ask him to convince you - he attempts to convince everyone completely off his own bat. Unasked.My question is, is there anything dishonourable about this scenario for anyone concerned? You most certainly do will it not. Everyone born is born willing it not. It's a question of whether the will will insist on having it's way despite God's attempt to convince it otherwise. Unto the point where God takes your answer as final.I think that it is honourable that the creator of the universe is prepared to take "No" for an answer.It should be noted that you need not have any conscious inkling that you are dealing with God or that he is dealing with you in order for him to pose the opportunity for heaven or hell.