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Author Topic:   Honour Amongst Christians
Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


Message 136 of 308 (450846)
01-24-2008 10:38 AM
Reply to: Message 135 by iano
01-24-2008 10:14 AM


Maybe a bit clearer
What happens is that God has to compel you to ask for forgiveness. And the way he does this is by convincing you that you need it. The gift transaction occurs at the point of his convincing you. You don't have to ask him to convince you - he attempts to convince everyone completely off his own bat. Unasked.
My question is, is there anything dishonourable about this scenario for anyone concerned?
Asking for forgiveness implies we've wronged God somehow. If I've really wronged God, I'd have no problems being convinced that I should ask Him for forgiveness. I'd hope He'd be okay and would want to ask for His forgiveness, it would be the right thing to do. I don't see any dishonour in this. Maybe some dishonour on God's part in trying to convince us that we need to ask Him, but I'm not really worried about God's honour, I'm sure He can take care of Himself.
The only problem is whether or not we've really wronged God somehow. If we have, then it's certainly honourable to ask for forgiveness. If not, then it's completely dishonourable for God to attempt to convince us otherwise.
If we take for granted that "any wrong against another person is the same as wronging God", then I've certainly wronged God.
Of course, again, this has nothing to do with believing God exists or not. If we become aware that we've wronged God, then we certainly should try to do better for Him (ask for forgiveness). If that's the only "restriction" than it's certainly an honour to talk with God.
You most certainly do will it not. Everyone born is born willing it not. It's a question of whether the will will insist on having it's way despite God's attempt to convince it otherwise. Unto the point where God takes your answer as final.
Ummm... no I don't "will it not" I really don't. Maybe I did when I was born, I can't recall. But I certainly don't now. And God will have an easy time convincing my will of any truth, no convincing needed, really, my will's already there.
It should be noted that you need not have any conscious inkling that you are dealing with God or that he is dealing with you in order for him to pose the opportunity for heaven or hell.
It is honourable that God doesn't depend on our believing in Him, and only cares on our acceptance of what is true given the information we have. That sounds like a very honest, caring, loving, and honourable God.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 135 by iano, posted 01-24-2008 10:14 AM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 138 by iano, posted 01-24-2008 12:58 PM Stile has replied

LinearAq
Member (Idle past 4675 days)
Posts: 598
From: Pocomoke City, MD
Joined: 11-03-2004


Message 137 of 308 (450860)
01-24-2008 12:52 PM
Reply to: Message 131 by iano
01-24-2008 8:09 AM


Re: Belief changes the equation
iano writes:
Coercion you were free to escape from is no coercion at all.
I am free to escape from Hell without accepting Jesus as my savior? I don't understand.
From my reading of the Bible and talking to different preachers, the only way to escape Hell is to accept Jesus.
It's Jesus or "burn baby burn".
Maybe you are speaking of being free to believe or not. How does that keep me from Hell?
If God is real and He is the God you believe in, then my belief seems irrelevant except that it will still land me in Hell. The difference is that I don't believe the choice is real and you do. Therefore, your belief in that God puts you in the position of being coerced into accepting the Savior in order to obtain forgiveness. God refuses to forgive, a thing He could easily do, unless you accept His Son. For believers, it's Jesus or Hell. Serve me or die. How is this not coercion? How is this honorable?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 131 by iano, posted 01-24-2008 8:09 AM iano has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 143 by ICANT, posted 01-24-2008 8:43 PM LinearAq has replied

iano
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 138 of 308 (450863)
01-24-2008 12:58 PM
Reply to: Message 136 by Stile
01-24-2008 10:38 AM


Re: Maybe a bit clearer
Asking for forgiveness implies we've wronged God somehow. If I've really wronged God, I'd have no problems being convinced that I should ask Him for forgiveness. I'd hope He'd be okay and would want to ask for His forgiveness, it would be the right thing to do. I don't see any dishonour in this.
It's all logical enough isn't it. The devil is literally in the detail though. Part of our problem is that we are born sinners by nature. Sin is as natural as the weather to us and we see little problem in it (except when someone sins against us of course).
quote:
Maybe some dishonour on God's part in trying to convince us that we need to ask Him, but I'm not really worried about God's honour, I'm sure He can take care of Himself.
I don't see what is dishonouring about it. Convincing you vindicates his being merciful. Failure to convince you vindicates his being just and wrathful against rebels in his realm.
You belong to God. He created you and has every right to set boundaries for your behaviour. Yet his rights concerning you are trampled upon by you. Assuming for the sake of argument that God as described does exist, it is not logical for a rebel to be unconcerned about God's honour.
The only problem is whether or not we've really wronged God somehow. If we have, then it's certainly honourable to ask for forgiveness. If not, then it's completely dishonourable for God to attempt to convince us otherwise.
The "only problem" is quickly resolved. God say's we've wronged him. He's in a position to know.
Forgiveness (the complete version) involves the offended paying whatever is due on behalf of the offender. Like, how it would sound if a friend lost a book you had loaned him and you said "I forgive you, now give me the $20 it cost so I can buy another copy". To forgive means you cough up the $20.
When you ask God to forgive you you ask him to pay the price himself for your offence. Which he will gladly do by laying the wrath due your sin upon Jesus instead of you.
The honourable thing for a defeated rebel to do is to surrender. Or face complete destruction. It is honourable for God to attempt to convince you you are defeated and without any hope of victory.
He can try and convince you to wave the white flag. But he can't force you to.
If we take for granted that "any wrong against another person is the same as wronging God", then I've certainly wronged God.
That's a good start. But there are a myriad of other ways you can wrong God.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 136 by Stile, posted 01-24-2008 10:38 AM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 139 by Stile, posted 01-24-2008 1:40 PM iano has replied

Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


Message 139 of 308 (450869)
01-24-2008 1:40 PM
Reply to: Message 138 by iano
01-24-2008 12:58 PM


Re: Maybe a bit clearer
He can try and convince you to wave the white flag. But he can't force you to.
Easily enough for God, he doesn't even have to convince me. Whenever I'm made aware of having wronged God, I'll certainly wave the white flag without any outside pressures. It's just the honourable thing to do.
That's a good start. But there are a myriad of other ways you can wrong God.
Not a problem, as long as I'm honest with myself I don't forsee any problems. Whenever it's indicated to me in any way that I've wronging God, I'll present Him with my deepest apologies, as I try to do with any other being (mostly people).

This message is a reply to:
 Message 138 by iano, posted 01-24-2008 12:58 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 144 by iano, posted 01-25-2008 4:17 AM Stile has replied

ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 140 of 308 (450904)
01-24-2008 6:42 PM
Reply to: Message 133 by Stile
01-24-2008 9:31 AM


Re: Honour in honesty
Hi Stile,
Stile writes:
I feel like we're not on the same page. But maybe we are. I just don't want to accidentally slip something past that you don't think is in there. I know I've stated I'm assuming God exists and that He is all-powerful earlier in the thread. But at this point it's really hard to show you a "truly how I feel" stance and still assume those points when I don't truly feel that way. Let's take another look at what I said:
First let me state that I thank you for the opportunity you have afforded me to be able to present my view of God and His plan of salvation.
Second, Since I have read your posts for about 10 months I thought I knew all along how you truly feel.
You say you are a seeker which is good because if you never seek you will never find. You have enough information to be able to avoid the penalty that you were placed under by your ancestor the first man.
But if you remember in Message 53 I said:
ICANT writes:
I as most have a way of oversimplifying Gods way of salvation.
There are many things involved in the asking for salvation or receiving the full pardon I talk about, I will name them.
The first thing is you would have to believe God exist.
Second you would have to believe God can and will do what He says He will do.
If you do not believe the first one that God exists all the other topple like dominos.
Stile, in Message 69 I said:
ICANT writes:
Stile, if you were to walk into my office and say ICANT I want to be saved tell me what I have to do.
I would not tell you that you had to join the church, be baptized, tithe, do good deeds or anything of that nature.
I would ask you:
Stile do you believe in God? yes/no if yes we proceed if no we try to resolve that question until it is resolved we can go no further.
What you are trying to do is find a way to soothe your mind and convince yourself that if there is a God and a hell to avoid is that you will be OK if you are sincere and do good.
But you are also saying that if you could believe in my God that you would accept the free pardon that is offered because you believe my God would be honorable in offering it as we have discussed.
Now if you would like to start a thread where we could discuss the big problem I would be glad to join in.
I hope as a seeker you find before it is too late.

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 133 by Stile, posted 01-24-2008 9:31 AM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 145 by Stile, posted 01-25-2008 10:13 AM ICANT has replied

ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 141 of 308 (450913)
01-24-2008 8:22 PM
Reply to: Message 122 by ringo
01-22-2008 8:51 PM


Re: Re-Firebug
Hi Ringo,
Ringo writes:
To paraphrase Satan, it's more honourable to burn than to grovel.
So you had rather be like two peas in a pod with Satan than to be honorable and accept responsibility for yourself.
If you so choose it's OK by me.
Have fun,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 122 by ringo, posted 01-22-2008 8:51 PM ringo has not replied

ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 142 of 308 (450915)
01-24-2008 8:29 PM
Reply to: Message 124 by nator
01-23-2008 7:22 AM


Re: Understanding the basics
Hi nator,
I missed this one.
nator writes:
So, you think you know the will of God.
Yes
2Pet 3:9 (KJV) The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
God's will is that none perish.
That is why He offers a full pardon.
Have fun,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 124 by nator, posted 01-23-2008 7:22 AM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 153 by nator, posted 01-25-2008 5:55 PM ICANT has replied

ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 143 of 308 (450916)
01-24-2008 8:43 PM
Reply to: Message 137 by LinearAq
01-24-2008 12:52 PM


Re: Belief changes the equation
Hi LinearAq,
I have a question: How do you get from this:
LinearAq writes:
coerced into accepting the Savior in order to obtain forgiveness.
To This?
LinearAq writes:
Serve me or die.
We are talking about honor aren't we?
Just curious.
Have fun,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 137 by LinearAq, posted 01-24-2008 12:52 PM LinearAq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 151 by LinearAq, posted 01-25-2008 1:53 PM ICANT has replied

iano
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 144 of 308 (450949)
01-25-2008 4:17 AM
Reply to: Message 139 by Stile
01-24-2008 1:40 PM


Re: Maybe a bit clearer
Stile writes:
Easily enough for God, he doesn't even have to convince me. Whenever I'm made aware of having wronged God, I'll certainly wave the white flag without any outside pressures. It's just the honourable thing to do.
Start waving. You've just called him a liar. So necessary did he think convincing you was that he sent his Holy Spirit into the world for that very purpose. To convict the world of sin and righteousness and judgment. You say it's not necessary for him to convince you.
Nor is it of much use that you be intellectually convinced - indeed it can be a hinderance. There are people who believe God exists and believe that they don't keep his law. And they ask for forgiveness for it. But it is not their hearts that have been convinced by God rather it is their intellects that have been convinced by their religion or culture. In his day, Jesus called them white washed tombs full of dead mens bones.
Nope, it is conviction by God that is required. That is the only thing that would bring you truly to your knees. His conviction, on his terms, in his time.
Not a problem, as long as I'm honest with myself I don't forsee any problems. Whenever it's indicated to me in any way that I've wronging God, I'll present Him with my deepest apologies, as I try to do with any other being (mostly people).
The problem is that you are an out and out sinner. And it is not in the remit of sinners to be honest when their independence from God is in anyway threatened. Which is why you don't get to contribute in any positive way to your own salvation. In so far as it relies on you the only thing you can contribute to is your damnation. Salvation is the work of God - not you.
You, my friend, have to do precisely... nothing. And if you do nothing he'll push you out the window of the 43rd floor so that you can fall to your death.
You have to die in order to be born again. And it might hurt a bit.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 139 by Stile, posted 01-24-2008 1:40 PM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 146 by Stile, posted 01-25-2008 10:46 AM iano has replied

Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


Message 145 of 308 (450975)
01-25-2008 10:13 AM
Reply to: Message 140 by ICANT
01-24-2008 6:42 PM


Re: Honour in honesty
ICANT writes:
The first thing is you would have to believe God exist.
Second you would have to believe God can and will do what He says He will do.
...
If you do not believe the first one that God exists all the other topple like dominos.
I'm not sure if they do topple. If God is concerned with us being honest with ourselves, those first two items don't seem so important. Why would God not want me to be honest with the very gifts he bestowed upon me?
What you are trying to do is find a way to soothe your mind and convince yourself that if there is a God and a hell to avoid is that you will be OK if you are sincere and do good.
Not really. I'm not looking to soothe my mind, I'm really just looking for conversation and debate (to selfishly help me determine the finer points of my current position) and to give others something to read
My current position isn't "I'm an atheist". My current position is "I'm going to be honest with myself and the reasoning skills I possess". This leads me to questioning God's existance. And I certainly don't want to convince myself I'm going to be OK if I'm sincere and do good. I can tell from this life alone that there's only a lot of criticism for being so.
I just think being honest and true to oneself is the right thing to do. If it's not, them I'm kinda screwed, and that's where this thread's topic comes from. Because, if I'm not honest with myself, who's unverifiable stories am I supposed to follow? I don't know where to go from there, it opens the door into an impossible to navigate forest. But if I follow honesty, then my path is set. If I follow honesty, and get to God and He says "You were supposed to believe in me". I'll say "oh, sorry, I wasn't smart enough to figure that out". And then I'll go to Hell. I'm not expecting honesty to be good enough for God, I just don't see any other verifiable option.
I don't want to mischaracterize the other Christians who have participated earlier in this thread either. Many of them have agreed that honesty is the path God expects us to follow. Personally, I hope they're right. But I'm not attempting to make myself feel better, I'm accostomed to disapointment. I'm just looking for any better options than what I'm currently doing. So far, I havn't been presented with a more likley path to honouring our creator (if there is a creator to honour) than observing the reality He created, and using the reasoning skills He gave me to come to conclusions about His reality.
But you are also saying that if you could believe in my God that you would accept the free pardon that is offered because you believe my God would be honorable in offering it as we have discussed.
Yes, as discussed.
I hope as a seeker you find before it is too late.
Me too.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 140 by ICANT, posted 01-24-2008 6:42 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 147 by ICANT, posted 01-25-2008 11:35 AM Stile has replied
 Message 148 by Phat, posted 01-25-2008 11:35 AM Stile has replied

Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


Message 146 of 308 (450978)
01-25-2008 10:46 AM
Reply to: Message 144 by iano
01-25-2008 4:17 AM


I will be honest with God, are you suggesting otherwise?
iano writes:
Start waving. You've just called him a liar.
No I didn't. However, I am already waving, I've been waving for many years now. But that's not between you and I, that's between God and I, if He exists, anyway.
So necessary did he think convincing you was that he sent his Holy Spirit into the world for that very purpose. To convict the world of sin and righteousness and judgment. You say it's not necessary for him to convince you.
True. I did say that. What makes you think He hasn't already convinced me? Maybe He no longer needs to convince me because He already has done so. You said yourself in Message 135:
iano from Message 135 writes:
It should be noted that you need not have any conscious inkling that you are dealing with God or that he is dealing with you in order for him to pose the opportunity for heaven or hell.
So, since I already agree with what God wants to convince me of... that I need to ask for forgiveness from those I've wronged, including (most of all) Him. Therefore, either I've already been convinced, or as soon as He attempts to convince me, I'll agree.
But it is not their hearts that have been convinced by God rather it is their intellects that have been convinced by their religion or culture. In his day, Jesus called them white washed tombs full of dead mens bones.
And it is only God who can tell what is in my heart, not you. So you saying I've lied to God is again, a foolish and unverifiable action by a man making manly assumptions. Again, I'll leave that judgement to God.
Nope, it is conviction by God that is required. That is the only thing that would bring you truly to your knees. His conviction, on his terms, in his time.
Exactly. And to this, it will be easily enough for God to convince me, since I already agree. And the judgement is His, not yours. Stop your unverifiable assumptions and let me deal with God the way God wants to be dealt with, in a personal and honest manner.
Or do you disagree? Do you really think God doesn't want to deal with people personally and honestly?
The problem is that you are an out and out sinner. And it is not in the remit of sinners to be honest when their independence from God is in anyway threatened. Which is why you don't get to contribute in any positive way to your own salvation. In so far as it relies on you the only thing you can contribute to is your damnation. Salvation is the work of God - not you.
Let's take this one step at a time:
-I already agree I'm an out and out sinner.
-I certainly can be honest with myself, God granted me the skills to do so. Are you saying God did not grant me the reasoning skills I possess? Are you saying God doesn't want me to use the skills he gave me to the best of my ability?
-I don't attempt to contribute in any positive way for my own salvation. That was the whole point of this thread, I find the act of positive-contribution toward getting salvation to be dishonourable.
-I agree that salvation is the work of God, I'm trying to get you to understand such. You seem to think your personal desires have some sort of input on my salvation. They do not. My salvation depends on an honest relationship between me and God. The judgement is His alone, not yours.
You, my friend, have to do precisely... nothing. And if you do nothing he'll push you out the window of the 43rd floor so that you can fall to your death.
True, doing nothing isn't a good thing. That's why I'm doing something, I'm being honest. If God doesn't want honesty, then I agree that I'm toast. Because I don't know where to turn if I can't be honest with myself, there are too many unverifiable options, too many words of man to distinguish from. All I can do is follow the path of honesty to where it leads. At least this way, I'm honouring God's creation of this reality.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 144 by iano, posted 01-25-2008 4:17 AM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 168 by iano, posted 01-28-2008 9:19 AM Stile has replied

ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 147 of 308 (450986)
01-25-2008 11:35 AM
Reply to: Message 145 by Stile
01-25-2008 10:13 AM


Re: Honour in honesty
Hi Stile,
Stile writes:
I just think being honest and true to oneself is the right thing to do.
I agree.
There is only one problem with that though.
What has shaped our mind to get us to the point we are at?
If you start with a false premise in the beginning of an experiment can you get the correct conclusion.
In other words if you do not have all the facts how can you make a correct decision and thereby be honest to yourself.
BTW have you ever read the Bible?
Have fun,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 145 by Stile, posted 01-25-2008 10:13 AM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 149 by Stile, posted 01-25-2008 11:58 AM ICANT has replied

Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 148 of 308 (450987)
01-25-2008 11:35 AM
Reply to: Message 145 by Stile
01-25-2008 10:13 AM


Re: Honour in honesty[qs=Stile]My current position isn't "I'm an atheist". My current
Stile writes:
My current position isn't "I'm an atheist". My current position is "I'm going to be honest with myself and the reasoning skills I possess". This leads me to questioning God's existence. And I certainly don't want to convince myself I'm going to be OK if I'm sincere and do good.
Thats interesting. I agree with the first part but don't quite understand the second part. If I do the best I can, what more is there? (Of course, I believe that it is not so much a matter of trying as it is a matter of trusting.God ultimately has veto power, obviously.)
Stile writes:
If I follow honesty, and get to God and He says "You were supposed to believe in me". I'll say "oh, sorry, I wasn't smart enough to figure that out". And then I'll go to Hell.
See... if I got sent to Hell, it would make me mad. Everything within my internal logic and reasoning capacity suggests that it would be far fairer for me to simply cease to exist, were I not worthy of Gods promotion.
I will agree that His logic trumps my logic, however.
Stile writes:
I'm not expecting honesty to be good enough for God, I just don't see any other verifiable option.
To me, honesty before God = surrender. Thats where we all agree, in a way.
As I formulate my ideas in this post, and after reading what I CAN'T and IANO have to say, I think that a point of contention concerning honor among Christians focuses on the Accuracy of the perceived God of the Bible versus the God that we all think we have a relationship with. I for one am unafraid to question the Bible.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 145 by Stile, posted 01-25-2008 10:13 AM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 150 by Stile, posted 01-25-2008 1:40 PM Phat has not replied

Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


Message 149 of 308 (450991)
01-25-2008 11:58 AM
Reply to: Message 147 by ICANT
01-25-2008 11:35 AM


Re: Honour in honesty
Hey ICANT,
ICANT writes:
What has shaped our mind to get us to the point we are at?
If you start with a false premise in the beginning of an experiment can you get the correct conclusion.
In other words if you do not have all the facts how can you make a correct decision and thereby be honest to yourself.
This is a very big problem, I agree, and takes a few very difficult-to-follow-through-with points to move forward:
1. If I am made aware of any false-premises I hold, I will change them.
This is easier to say than to do in the extreme. But the only way, again, to keep track of this is to be as honest with ourselves as possible.
2. Always assume you do not have all the facts, and always be ready for anyone or any experience to add to the facts you already hold.
This too is very difficult. And again, it relys on being honest with yourself in order to stay focused.
Therefore it comes down to... honesty may not lead me in the correct direction, but it's my best bet. Because not using honesty only opens us up to anything anyone says, and that comes with even worse problems attached.
I fully admit I may be wrong, and I may not have all the facts. But what more can I do than be honest with what I have and make honest conclusion from that? That's not rhetorical, by the way, I really mean to ask. If you have another method of which I can more easily understand the truth of things, I'd really like to hear it.
BTW have you ever read the Bible?
No. I was raised a Roman Catholic. I was baptized, had first communion, went through confirmation. Was in the Catholic school system untill the end of highschool. I've read much of the Bible, and understand a lot of the Catholic terminology and theology. But I've never read the Bible from start to finish.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 147 by ICANT, posted 01-25-2008 11:35 AM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 154 by ICANT, posted 01-25-2008 6:16 PM Stile has replied

Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


Message 150 of 308 (451002)
01-25-2008 1:40 PM
Reply to: Message 148 by Phat
01-25-2008 11:35 AM


Honesty is key
Phat writes:
Stile writes:
My current position isn't "I'm an atheist". My current position is "I'm going to be honest with myself and the reasoning skills I possess". This leads me to questioning God's existence. And I certainly don't want to convince myself I'm going to be OK if I'm sincere and do good.
Thats interesting. I agree with the first part but don't quite understand the second part. If I do the best I can, what more is there? (Of course, I believe that it is not so much a matter of trying as it is a matter of trusting.God ultimately has veto power, obviously.)
Let me try to rephrase it. "I certainly don't want to convince myself I'm going to be OK if I'm sincere and do good" means that I accept the possibility that being sincere and doing good may not be a priority to God. Or if there is no afterlife it will obviously be moot in the sense of salvation, anyway. Therefore, I can't convince myself I'm going to be OK (in a receiving salvation-sense) just because I'm sincere and doing good. For all I know, God may be vindictive or maybe even just unpredictable. Since I don't know what God's like, I don't want to do anything betting on Him being a certain way. That doesn't seem right. Also, if I did convince myself I'd be OK (salvation-OK, again) for being sincere and doing good, I fall into the very trap I'm afraid of... expecting the gift of salvation. That is something I feel is very dishonourable.
That's still a bit of a jumbled mess of thoughts... I hope it's a bit clearer on what I meant.
See... if I got sent to Hell, it would make me mad. Everything within my internal logic and reasoning capacity suggests that it would be far fairer for me to simply cease to exist, were I not worthy of Gods promotion.
I don't understand how I could be mad at something I had no control over in the first place. I admit that I wouldn't find it fair in anyway, but that wouldn't make me mad. I decided on my own that being honest with myself and the skills I have is my best option. If that is not so, I am prepared to accept whatever fate becomes me. I do not see how I can reasonably do anything else. Therefore, if the universe is ruled by an unreasonable being, I didn't have a chance in the first place. I wouldn't be mad, though. Mad is reserved for those things I know I could have done better. If I'm wrong with this decision, I still know I couldn't have done any better.
I will agree that His logic trumps my logic, however.
Logic? Logic just is. Our logic is just as valid as anyone elses. I will agree that His ability to do what he pleases trumps ours though. That kinda comes with being infinite and all
To me, honesty before God = surrender. Thats where we all agree, in a way.
To me, honesty = the best I can offer. That's it. I offer my honesty (my best) to friends, family, God, anyone and everyone. That's all I got. If that's not good enough, then I was screwed before I even began. If wrong it's a bummer, for sure, but nothing to get angry about, what more could I have done?
I think that a point of contention concerning honor among Christians focuses on the Accuracy of the perceived God of the Bible versus the God that we all think we have a relationship with. I for one am unafraid to question the Bible.
I think the Bible is... outdated. For whatever purpose or reason, I have the ability to question things and to verify things. In order to do my best, I need to use these abilities to figure out whatever I can about the truth of this reality. Parts of the Bible are very helpful in contrasting what I think is good now and what people thought was good 2000 years ago. That's an important piece of knowledge that should not be taken lightly. And we would be foolish indeed not to learn from it. What we can't forget is that we've also had an extra 2000 years to learn even more. To disregard this fact would be very dishonourable to whoever or whatever gave me the abilities of questioning and verifying. In order to be honest with myself, I cannot refuse the extra information these last 2000 years provide to us that those living 2000 years ago did not have. In order to be honest with myself I need to look at all information available so that I can make the best informed decision I'm capable of. Otherwise, I wouldn't be giving my best efforts.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 148 by Phat, posted 01-25-2008 11:35 AM Phat has not replied

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