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Author Topic:   Honour Amongst Christians
LinearAq
Member (Idle past 4676 days)
Posts: 598
From: Pocomoke City, MD
Joined: 11-03-2004


Message 151 of 308 (451004)
01-25-2008 1:53 PM
Reply to: Message 143 by ICANT
01-24-2008 8:43 PM


Re: Belief changes the equation
I have a question: How do you get from this:
LinearAq writes:
coerced into accepting the Savior in order to obtain forgiveness.
To This?
LinearAq writes:
Serve me or die.
We are talking about honor aren't we?
The "Serve me or die" was another way of expressing God's requirement that we serve Him or be delicately placed in a warm (a mere 2500+ degrees) lake. Basically, it is a threat. Something I don't consider honorable.
Just because accepting His Son rewards you with Heaven doesn't make the threat any less real. It's not like God is not in control of Hell. Hell, He built the place with the full knowledge that He was going to put people there if they didn't serve Him.
Apparantly you believe that threats of eternal punishment ARE honorable.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 143 by ICANT, posted 01-24-2008 8:43 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 162 by ICANT, posted 01-25-2008 8:01 PM LinearAq has not replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 152 of 308 (451026)
01-25-2008 5:51 PM
Reply to: Message 130 by ICANT
01-23-2008 5:42 PM


Re: Good is greater than God
1) Who created the devil and his angels?
2) I thought that it was God who sent people to hell for not believing in Him.
quote:
(1) God created the devil and his angels.
If the Devil and his angels are responsible for sending me to hell, and God made the Devil and his angels, isn't that the same as God sending me to Hell through his agent?
quote:
{2) A lot of people have that Idea but I don't find it in the Bible.
So, God has no control over who goes to Hell and who doesn't?
Edited by nator, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 130 by ICANT, posted 01-23-2008 5:42 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 160 by ICANT, posted 01-25-2008 7:14 PM nator has replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 153 of 308 (451027)
01-25-2008 5:55 PM
Reply to: Message 142 by ICANT
01-24-2008 8:29 PM


Re: Understanding the basics
So, you think you know the will of God.
quote:
Yes
How do you know, with 100% certainty, that you are 100% correct, even though you are an imperfect human and cannot, by definition, have perfect knowledge of anything?
In other words, do you think it is utterly impossible that you could be wrong?
Edited by nator, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 142 by ICANT, posted 01-24-2008 8:29 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 156 by ICANT, posted 01-25-2008 6:32 PM nator has replied

ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 154 of 308 (451032)
01-25-2008 6:16 PM
Reply to: Message 149 by Stile
01-25-2008 11:58 AM


Re: Honour in honesty
Hi Stile,
Stile writes:
This is a very big problem, I agree, and takes a few very difficult-to-follow-through-with points to move forward:
I agree the biggest problem is to finding the truth that we need to have to be able to make correct decisions.
Much is said on this site concerning the Bible that it is a myth just mans words so what am I to believe?
I believe what God inspired the writers to record was perfect. God is honorable and wants us to have the truth so we can make the right decisions.
When the Ten Commandments were etched into stone what was the method of recording information? There was no tape recorders, no computers, and no paper. So what did they use. As I understand it they used word of mouth for a long time. So if you get a couple of dishonest people involved what is the end product.
I would like to believe we have the truth. For God to be honorable He has to have preserved the truth for us. It is our job to find it.
I have a copy of the New American Bible copyrighted 1987 by the Catholic Press. I can find every thing I have said to you in that book it is just expressed in a little different way here and there.
I can do the same thing with the New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures by the Watchtower Society.
Stile writes:
Therefore it comes down to... honesty may not lead me in the correct direction, but it's my best bet. Because not using honesty only opens us up to anything anyone says, and that comes with even worse problems attached.
I sense that you are very dissatisfied with what you have been taught and have come to the conclusion that it is not honorable. Thus you are seeking the truth. I will tell you like I tell my people don't believe a word I say. Go to the source and see what He says. The only place we have to find that is the Bible. I personally think the King James Version is the most honorable English Bible available. Is it perfect? No, but it is nearest to what I can find the original was.
But today christianity is not about honor, and doing what is right. It is about having the biggest congregation so the preacher can make the most money. Who can entertain the crowd better. Who can have the most programs.
Like you said we can only strive to do our best try to make sure we have it right but we can not fault God if our forefathers messed it up so bad we can't find the truth.
I agree as you do that I could be 100 percent wrong. But if the available information I have been able to gather is correct I don't have to worry about it. But how can I know it is right?
I have to believe that God is honorable enough to make sure the truth is available to me.
Sincerely,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 149 by Stile, posted 01-25-2008 11:58 AM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 155 by Phat, posted 01-25-2008 6:27 PM ICANT has replied
 Message 169 by Stile, posted 01-28-2008 9:58 AM ICANT has replied

Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 155 of 308 (451034)
01-25-2008 6:27 PM
Reply to: Message 154 by ICANT
01-25-2008 6:16 PM


Re: Honour in honesty
ICANT writes:
I believe what God inspired the writers to record was perfect. God is honorable and wants us to have the truth so we can make the right decisions.
I used to believe that since that is what I was taught. I now am unsure. There are many logical arguments that expose the flaws of a word for word literal Bible.
ICANT writes:
I have to believe that God is honorable enough to make sure the truth is available to me.
I agree. And I believe that if I seek the truth with all of the humility and trust that I can muster, I shall find it...(or rather,He shall find me)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 154 by ICANT, posted 01-25-2008 6:16 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 157 by ICANT, posted 01-25-2008 6:50 PM Phat has replied

ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 156 of 308 (451036)
01-25-2008 6:32 PM
Reply to: Message 153 by nator
01-25-2008 5:55 PM


Re: Understanding the basics
Hi nator,
nator writes:
In other words, do you think it is utterly impossible that you could be wrong?
Sure I think that.
But just because I think it so does not make it so.
If I am wrong I got a lot at risk. I am gambling my eternal destiny on what I believe. All I have to use to determine if I am right or wrong is the evidence I can find to examine. Then come to my conclusions. I can only hope those men were very honorable men and that God is as honorable as I believe He is, to make sure I have the truth.
So if the information I have is correct I can say with 100% certainty that I am correct. If the information is wrong I can say with 100% certainty I am wrong.
Have fun,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 153 by nator, posted 01-25-2008 5:55 PM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 158 by Phat, posted 01-25-2008 6:50 PM ICANT has not replied
 Message 163 by nator, posted 01-27-2008 8:44 AM ICANT has not replied

ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 157 of 308 (451040)
01-25-2008 6:50 PM
Reply to: Message 155 by Phat
01-25-2008 6:27 PM


Re: Honour in honesty
Hi Phat,
Phat writes:
I used to believe that since that is what I was taught. I now am unsure. There are many logical arguments that expose the flaws of a word for word literal Bible.
You are confusing what you think I said for what I really said.
I said I believed what God gave the original writers was 100% perfect.
I did not say what got wrote down after 500 years of verbal passing it along is 100% pure.
If you have ever played the game where something is written down the first person reads it to the next person. then That person passes it along until it reaches the last person and then it is compared to the original. It never matches.
So no Phat I do not say the KJV Bible is a inspired word for word bible. The LXX is not either.
What I am saying is God is a honorable God. There have been many honorable men that God has used through the ages to preserve His Word for us. Is it perfect? By no stretch of the imagination. But with the leadership of the Holy Spirit to guide us through the maze we can find the truth.
But there are so many dishonorable, dishonest men who know not Jesus trying lead people in the name of christianity.
Have fun,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 155 by Phat, posted 01-25-2008 6:27 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 159 by Phat, posted 01-25-2008 7:01 PM ICANT has replied

Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 158 of 308 (451041)
01-25-2008 6:50 PM
Reply to: Message 156 by ICANT
01-25-2008 6:32 PM


Re: Understanding the basics
ICANT writes:
So if the information I have is correct I can say with 100% certainty that I am correct.
The only problem is that the only way we know the information is correct is because the information itself affirms that it is correct.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 156 by ICANT, posted 01-25-2008 6:32 PM ICANT has not replied

Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 159 of 308 (451043)
01-25-2008 7:01 PM
Reply to: Message 157 by ICANT
01-25-2008 6:50 PM


Re: Honour in honesty
ICANT writes:
What I am saying is God is a honorable God. There have been many honorable men that God has used through the ages to preserve His Word for us. Is it perfect? By no stretch of the imagination. But with the leadership of the Holy Spirit to guide us through the maze we can find the truth.
So how do we know who has this Holy Spirit and who doesn't?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 157 by ICANT, posted 01-25-2008 6:50 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 161 by ICANT, posted 01-25-2008 7:36 PM Phat has not replied

ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 160 of 308 (451044)
01-25-2008 7:14 PM
Reply to: Message 152 by nator
01-25-2008 5:51 PM


Re: Good is greater than God
Hi nator,
nator writes:
If the Devil and his angels are responsible for sending me to hell, and God made the Devil and his angels, isn't that the same as God sending me to Hell through his agent?
Did I say that? Or, Are you saying that.
If I said if and you will please point it out to me I will go back and correct it.
I said mankind is doomed to hell when they reach the point in life they become as the first man did when he ate the fruit of the tree of good and evil. He then became as God knowing good and evil. The man was kicked out of God's estate. His descendants you in this case have no right or claim to live in God's estate. Since you are not living in God's estate you are living in the devil's estate from that moment on and where ever he is you will be.
Now God being a honorable God offers you a way to change that and to live in His estate. He leaves it entirely up to you. He will not force you. It has to be your choice.
That makes Him a most honorable God.
nator writes:
So, God has no control over who goes to Hell and who doesn't?
Could you reword that so it wouldn't be such a loaded question, nevermind.
God has no control over those who choose not to accept the free pardon.
God does have control over those who do accept the free pardon and they in no way can go to the lake of fire or Hell as you call it.
Have fun,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 152 by nator, posted 01-25-2008 5:51 PM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 164 by nator, posted 01-27-2008 8:57 AM ICANT has replied

ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 161 of 308 (451050)
01-25-2008 7:36 PM
Reply to: Message 159 by Phat
01-25-2008 7:01 PM


Re: Honour in honesty
Hi Phat,
I will use 1 post to answer both your posts.
Phat writes:
The only problem is that the only way we know the information is correct is because the information itself affirms that it is correct.
The Holy Spirit affirms what the truth is. There is one problem with that. There are many spirits in the world. All the devils angels. That complicates things. You have to be careful what spirit you are listening too.
Phat writes:
So how do we know who has this Holy Spirit and who doesn't?
We don't.
You receive the Holy Spirit when you are born again. John 3:6 says "that which is born of the Spirit is spirit." That is not manifest in raising the dead, speaking in tongues, rolling on the floor or some other emotional outburst. It is manifest in someone doing God's will. By their works ye shall know them.
Phat I can only speak for myself I know what I have done. I have committed my spirit, my all into the keeping of God. Like Paul I am persuaded He is able to keep that which I have committed unto Him against that day. If God can't keep it ICANT.
Have fun,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 159 by Phat, posted 01-25-2008 7:01 PM Phat has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 165 by nator, posted 01-27-2008 9:02 AM ICANT has not replied

ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 162 of 308 (451053)
01-25-2008 8:01 PM
Reply to: Message 151 by LinearAq
01-25-2008 1:53 PM


Re: Belief changes the equation
Hi LinearAq,
LinearAq writes:
Apparantly you believe that threats of eternal punishment ARE honorable.
Threat=1 : an expression of intention to inflict evil, injury, or damage Threat Definition & Meaning - Merriam-Webster.
Certainty=1 : something that is certain. Certainty Definition & Meaning - Merriam-Webster
Mankind is not threatened will the lake of fire.
It is certain that if mankind do not receive the free pardon God offers mankind will spend eternity in the lake of fire.
Why?
Because the first man choose to eat of the tree of good and evil to become like God knowing good and evil. He was kicked out of God's estate into the world. The devils estate. Therefore all his descendants are living in the devil's estate the world. They will share his fate unless they decide not to do so.
You can blame the devil.
You can blame God.
You can even blame me.
You can blame your parents.
You can blame anybody you desire to blame.
The fact remains you will spend eternity in the lake of fire and that is no threat just a certainty.
A most honorable God made a way you do not have to meet that fate.
God offers you a full pardon and it is free.
If you reject it you have no one to blame but yourself.
Have fun,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 151 by LinearAq, posted 01-25-2008 1:53 PM LinearAq has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 166 by nator, posted 01-27-2008 9:05 AM ICANT has not replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 163 of 308 (451315)
01-27-2008 8:44 AM
Reply to: Message 156 by ICANT
01-25-2008 6:32 PM


Re: Understanding the basics
quote:
So if the information I have is correct I can say with 100% certainty that I am correct. If the information is wrong I can say with 100% certainty I am wrong.
So, it would be more accurate to say that you believe you know the will of God, but you don't actually have any way of knowing that you actually do.
Is that a fair statement?
Edited by nator, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 156 by ICANT, posted 01-25-2008 6:32 PM ICANT has not replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 164 of 308 (451316)
01-27-2008 8:57 AM
Reply to: Message 160 by ICANT
01-25-2008 7:14 PM


Re: Good is greater than God
If the Devil and his angels are responsible for sending me to hell, and God made the Devil and his angels, isn't that the same as God sending me to Hell through his agent?
quote:
Did I say that? Or, Are you saying that.
You said that God didn't actually send people to Hell Himself, but that the Devil and the Devil's angels did that.
I then asked you who made the Devil and his angels, and you told me that God did.
My question above is simply the next logical step.
What is the difference between God sending people to Hell and the agent God created (and also controls, if God really is All-Powerful) sending people to Hell?
If Tony the Mob Boss wants protection money from me and I refuse to pay, I end up on the whack list.
If Tony doesn't do the deed himself and sends Geno his hitman, isn't Tony the Mob Boss still responsible for ordering Geno to whack me?
I think it's called conspiracy.
Added by Edit: I just realized that I misread your post, and that you did NOT say that the devil and his angels send people to hell. So, I retract the parts of my posts which pertain to that misreading.
However, the part about God unreasonably punishing me for something I didn't do is still a major problem.
quote:
I said mankind is doomed to hell when they reach the point in life they become as the first man did when he ate the fruit of the tree of good and evil. He then became as God knowing good and evil. The man was kicked out of God's estate. His descendants you in this case have no right or claim to live in God's estate. Since you are not living in God's estate you are living in the devil's estate from that moment on and where ever he is you will be.
If true, then your God has no honor, punishing me for something I had no control over and that I didn't do.
It is like putting a murderer's child to death for the crime her father did.
That's sick.
quote:
God has no control over those who choose not to accept the free pardon.
But I thought God was All-Powerful and All-Loving?
How can an All-Powerful God not have control over who goes to Hell and who doesn't?
How can an All-Loving God send his people to Hell to endure an eternity of suffering and torment if He is All-Loving.
It simply makes no sense at all.
Edited by nator, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 160 by ICANT, posted 01-25-2008 7:14 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 167 by ICANT, posted 01-27-2008 9:32 PM nator has replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 165 of 308 (451319)
01-27-2008 9:02 AM
Reply to: Message 161 by ICANT
01-25-2008 7:36 PM


Re: Honour in honesty
quote:
You receive the Holy Spirit when you are born again. That is not manifest in raising the dead, speaking in tongues, rolling on the floor or some other emotional outburst. It is manifest in someone doing God's will. By their works ye shall know them.
So, can someone do God's will if they don't believe in God?
Edited by nator, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 161 by ICANT, posted 01-25-2008 7:36 PM ICANT has not replied

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