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Author
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Topic: Perceptions of Reality
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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1427 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: 03-14-2004
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Message 278 of 305 (397913)
04-28-2007 10:33 AM
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Reply to: Message 271 by ikabod
04-24-2007 8:34 AM
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Reality for Pink Elephants?
reality is everything , even the unreal , even hallucinations , the issue with perceving reality is we are on the inside , ... That a person has hallucinations is reality, but the "pink elephants" that they see in their hallucinations are not reality. Yes we are on the inside - not just of reality but of our individual perceptions of reality. To the person with the hallucinations the pink elephants are "real" because they are perceived in the same way that real things are perceived. The question is how we can differentiate between those perceptions that are hallucinations from those that are reality. We can test for the existence of pink elephants and see if the perception of pink elephants can be reproduced. If it can, then we look at the conditions under which it is reproduced and how the perceptions compare (are the elephants the same size, behave the same and have the same shade of pink). If one of the conditions involves the biochemical alteration of senses (ie - high levels of inebriation, hallucinogenic drugs etc.) then this brings into question the accuracy of those perceptions. If there is little correlation between the several perceptions of pink elephants then this brings into question the accuracy of the perceptions.
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| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 271 by ikabod, posted 04-24-2007 8:34 AM | | ikabod has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 279 by ikabod, posted 04-30-2007 3:49 AM | | RAZD has replied |
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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1427 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: 03-14-2004
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Message 280 of 305 (398294)
04-30-2007 7:36 AM
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Reply to: Message 279 by ikabod
04-30-2007 3:49 AM
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Re: Reality for Pink Elephants?
You've confused the concept of pink elephants with the reality of pink elephants.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 279 by ikabod, posted 04-30-2007 3:49 AM | | ikabod has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 281 by ikabod, posted 04-30-2007 10:18 AM | | RAZD has replied |
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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1427 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: 03-14-2004
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Message 282 of 305 (398449)
04-30-2007 7:00 PM
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Reply to: Message 281 by ikabod
04-30-2007 10:18 AM
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Re: Reality for Pink Elephants?
sorry but i disagree , we are talking about very specific pink elephants , we can define them in "real" terms ... But that doesn't make it real. You are still talking about the concept, not the reality, of pink elephants.
We can produce as much reliable data on these pink elephants , including the fact that they are a hallucination effect ,as we can on say Stonehenge ... which seems to be made of very solid lumps of matter ... both are part of our reality , the fact that they are made of differing things is just the way reality is . Do this independently with different people and you will see the difference. Different people will agree down to the finest detail of the artifacts of Stonehenge. They can compare pictures taken at different times by different people and see that the stones are the same. What will be the agreement on the shade of pink, the size and weight of pink elephants? The concept may exist in common literature about hallucinations, but outside of the concept there is no reality to pink elephants. Enjoy.
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we are limited in our ability to understand
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RebelAAmericanOZen[Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
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| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 281 by ikabod, posted 04-30-2007 10:18 AM | | ikabod has not replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 283 by Sour, posted 04-30-2007 8:22 PM | | RAZD has not replied |
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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1427 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: 03-14-2004
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Message 287 of 305 (398570)
05-01-2007 1:23 PM
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Reply to: Message 285 by ikabod
05-01-2007 6:28 AM
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Equal Reality for Pink Elephants?
a points here , i am not talking about others experiencing the pink elephants , but they experience the people who have see the elephants , the "real" effect of the elephants is in how they have affected the people two or more steps away from the original vision.
ie the doctor treating the person for the hallucination .. his work is real ... And independent of pink elephants. Treatment is the same if the hallucination is little green goblins, techno gnomes, insectoid ferris wheels, or friendly rabbit-like pookas. What affects the other people is not the substance of the hallucination but the fact that a person is sensing something no one else does, and is altering their behavior based on their perceptions.
no , i am saying reality is everything , including experience , everything we experience IS within , and a part of , reality .. But your experience is not part of my reality. The only thing that affects me is your communication of your experience, which I am free to treat as either (a) fact, (b) possibility or (c) hallucination. Conversely, when dealing with perceptions of Stonehenge and the like, we can compare photos, drawings, writings of people that never met and which come from completely different backgrounds, and determine that they are talking about the same pieces of rock on a certain hillside in England. That the vast majority of such documented perceptions match to such discrete details as a carving of a certain kind of dagger on one specific stone when such had not been communicated to them prior to their experience of Stonehenge shows that we are dealing with a vastly different level of experience. Now it is possible to avoid going to Stonehenge or studying about it, and to dismiss the observations of all other people that have been there as hallucinations. The difference is that one would also need to dismiss all the correlations between such observations and records of other observations (including places where the stones were quarried and similar structures made of wood, etc), and to dismiss such vast amounts of evidence that it would take a conspiracy of thousands of people committed to perpetuating a hoax. This becomes a delusion of a different kind.
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we are limited in our ability to understand
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RebelAAmericanOZen[Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 285 by ikabod, posted 05-01-2007 6:28 AM | | ikabod has replied |
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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1427 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: 03-14-2004
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Message 292 of 305 (398822)
05-02-2007 7:50 PM
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Reply to: Message 290 by ikabod
05-02-2007 5:16 AM
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Re: Equal Reality for Pink Elephants?
arrh , no i am not talking about reality expressed by the self , but the greater whole reality that include all the self's and there perceptions .. you are making your personal perception important , ... Not really. What I am saying is that if it is not part of my reality it is not part of the greater reality - that which is reality for anyone or any-not-one.
...where as a i am starting from the point that reality exeist with out us , reality does not need an observer . Exactly: your personal hallucination is not part of that reality, because it requires you as the observer and does not exist without it.
All of our personal percevied realities are made up of masses of ignorances , where as Reality has none . this is why perception is not a good tool to observer reality with ... But it's the only tool we have. And I agree that when the only tool you have is a hammer, all your problems initially look like nails, but it is also amazing what you can do with only a hammer: hammers can turn nails into screwdrivers.
further i could not communicate with you about my experences , but they will still be there and your reality will now include a ignorance that you have no control over , and can not percive , until a outside sorce informs you . So what do you count as an outside source? Other people? Certainly that is a starting point: that is how we agree on the reality of Stonehenge versus pink elephants. Enjoy.
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we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmericanOZen[Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 290 by ikabod, posted 05-02-2007 5:16 AM | | ikabod has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 293 by ikabod, posted 05-03-2007 5:13 AM | | RAZD has replied |
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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1427 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: 03-14-2004
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Message 295 of 305 (399101)
05-03-2007 9:22 PM
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Reply to: Message 293 by ikabod
05-03-2007 5:13 AM
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whose perception of which greater reality?
... very intresting , because in your reality you do not know what i have in my left hand , thus from your statement , the apple in my left hand is not part of your reality and by your statmentnot part of the greater reality ... Your argument still rests on your perception of reality as your criteria for the greater reality, that because you perceive the apple that it is real -- but it could be an hallucination: how do you know? How do I know that you are not just claiming to have an apple in your hand when in fact it is empty? As I said you can explain your perception and then I can decide whether I regard it as fact, fiction, possibility, or hallucination (or any of archers metaphors for possibilities): without my own perception all I have is your description. Now, were we at the same table and you could hand me the apple, it would be different. I could see it in your hand, feel it in mine, match my vision observation with my tactile one. This test of reality cannot be applied to hallucinations, or perceptions that cannot be shared. Likewise you could take a picture of the apple in your hand and post it on the web, and many people could look at the picture and share the experience of the picture being real. You could also "photoshop" the picture to create the image of an apple in your hand when in fact it was not there, but the picture would be real.
this in effect you are claiming to create all reality by your action of perciving it ! if you did not exist there would be no reality ! Not really, and certainly not any more than you do by claiming that your perception of an apple is one of "greater reality" ... We can reach a consensus on certain things having a high probability of being "greater reality" objects by repeated observations and by correlated observations by several individuals that then all communicate a similar perceptions ... individual perceptions. Enjoy.
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we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmericanOZen[Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 293 by ikabod, posted 05-03-2007 5:13 AM | | ikabod has not replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 296 by tesla, posted 01-27-2008 10:51 AM | | RAZD has replied |
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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1427 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: 03-14-2004
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Message 297 of 305 (451342)
01-27-2008 11:10 AM
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Admin?
This is near 300 posts and has been inactive for a while. We've recently had some discussion along this line on another thread, so I have made a version 2 in proposed new topics
Perceptions of Reality -v2 Please close this one and promote that one to this forum (Is It Science?) Thanks.
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we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmericanOZen[Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.
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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1427 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: 03-14-2004
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Message 298 of 305 (451424)
01-27-2008 4:59 PM
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Reply to: Message 296 by tesla
01-27-2008 10:51 AM
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Re: whose perception of which greater reality?
... and the lack of comprehension means something is "supernatural". I would say it is unknown: it could be natural or supernatural, but because we don't understand it we don't know.
in reality, nothing outside of energy is real. ... something can "apparently" come form nothing, but something cant "literally" come from nothing. What if two somethings that add up to nothing happen? How would you know one something from two? Enjoy.
we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmericanOZen[Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.
Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 296 by tesla, posted 01-27-2008 10:51 AM | | tesla has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 299 by tesla, posted 01-27-2008 5:04 PM | | RAZD has replied |
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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1427 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: 03-14-2004
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Message 300 of 305 (451451)
01-27-2008 6:33 PM
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Reply to: Message 299 by tesla
01-27-2008 5:04 PM
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Re: whose perception of which greater reality?
are you serious? you cannot take something, and then get nothing. prove that. ... because if there is no energy at all, literally nothing, then nothing can come of it, and it isn't real. This is a different question. In Message 296 you said:
in reality, nothing outside of energy is real. ... something can "apparently" come form nothing, but something cant "literally" come from nothing. Are you talking about the physics in the current cooled universe? In that case particles appear and disappear all the time, according to quantum mechanics. Sometimes a subatomic particle changes into two subatomic particles. Are they dancing in and out of reality or are they dancing in and out of another dimension? We don't know. Or the physics before inflation? We have some theories about what happened, and some theories about how different the physics was in that period, but in reality we don't know.
the burning of wood would appear to destroy the wood, but it was changed in form from what it once was, to another thing. That's chemistry, not physics. It doesn't even get below the molecular level to explain. Enjoy. Edited by RAZD, : spc
we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmericanOZen[Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.
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| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 299 by tesla, posted 01-27-2008 5:04 PM | | tesla has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 301 by tesla, posted 01-27-2008 6:42 PM | | RAZD has replied |
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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1427 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: 03-14-2004
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Message 302 of 305 (451516)
01-27-2008 10:12 PM
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Reply to: Message 301 by tesla
01-27-2008 6:42 PM
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Re: whose perception of which greater reality?
exactly. "appear" being the key. Okay, let's not equivocate on the meaning of "appear" Subatomic particles pop in and out of existence in our universe. They also spontaneously change from one kind of particle to another or to two other particles etc etc. Enjoy.
we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmericanOZen[Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.
Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 301 by tesla, posted 01-27-2008 6:42 PM | | tesla has replied |
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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1427 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: 03-14-2004
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or link to (promoted) -v2
Thanks.
Summary messages only, please. My summary is in Message 1. I'm still looking for ways to validate information and concepts outside the scientific method. How about promoting Perceptions of Reality -v2 and providing a link from the closing message here? That will also help refocus the topic. Enjoy. Edited by RAZD, : focus
we are limited in our ability to understand
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RebelAAmericanOZen[Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
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