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Author Topic:   Honour Amongst Christians
nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 166 of 308 (451322)
01-27-2008 9:05 AM
Reply to: Message 162 by ICANT
01-25-2008 8:01 PM


Re: Belief changes the equation
quote:
It is certain that if mankind do not receive the free pardon God offers mankind will spend eternity in the lake of fire.
The pardon isn't free.
If it was, we wouldn't have to have even heard of Jesus or Christianity, or have to accept either if we have, to receive it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 162 by ICANT, posted 01-25-2008 8:01 PM ICANT has not replied

ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 167 of 308 (451507)
01-27-2008 9:32 PM
Reply to: Message 164 by nator
01-27-2008 8:57 AM


Re: Good is greater than God
Hi nator,
ICANT writes:
I said mankind is doomed to hell when they reach the point in life they become as the first man did when he ate the fruit of the tree of good and evil. He then became as God knowing good and evil. The man was kicked out of God's estate. His descendants you in this case have no right or claim to live in God's estate. Since you are not living in God's estate you are living in the devil's estate from that moment on and where ever he is you will be.
nator writes:
If true, then your God has no honor, punishing me for something I had no control over and that I didn't do.
But God is not punishing you. You are punishing yourself.
nator writes:
It is like putting a murderer's child to death for the crime her father did.
I don't like this analogy lets try another one.
A woman who has aids gets pregnant and brings a child into the world who has aids. Is that God's fault?
nator writes:
How can an All-Powerful God not have control over who goes to Hell and who doesn't?
Because He has enough power to limit what He will or will not do.
If He controled it you would not have freewill and have the ability to choose where you wanted to spend eternity.
nator writes:
How can an All-Loving God send his people
nator God does not send His people to the lake of fire. All His people go into eternal life.
God does not even send the devils children to the lake of fire. They go there by choice.
nator writes:
It simply makes no sense at all.
I agree if God sent His people to the lake of fire it would make no sense at all. After all they have accepted Him if they are His people. I would think that would be very dishonorable.
I also think God would be very dishonorable if He did not offer us a way to escape the fate our ancestor brought on us.
Message 165
nator writes:
So, can someone do God's will if they don't believe in God?
Short answer: No.
2Pet 3:9 (KJV) The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
Have fun,
God's will is that all mankind come to repentance.
To do that you have to believe in God. You have to believe that He will do what He says He will do. You have to see your need. (that you are going to spend eternity in the devils lake of fire} Unless all this has transpired how can you receive the pardon offered?
Message 166
nator writes:
The pardon isn't free.
It is provided without cost, you can't pay for it.
You can't earn it.
I believe that makes is free regardless of your objections.
What would you call free?
Forbidden
Costing nothing; "complimentary tickets".
Free Definition & Meaning | Dictionary.com
costing nothing Example: a free gift
provided without, or not subject to, a charge or payment:
without cost, payment, or charge.
American Heritage Dictionary
Costing nothing; gratuitous: a free meal.
Have fun,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 164 by nator, posted 01-27-2008 8:57 AM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 180 by nator, posted 01-28-2008 5:30 PM ICANT has replied

iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 168 of 308 (451627)
01-28-2008 9:19 AM
Reply to: Message 146 by Stile
01-25-2008 10:46 AM


Re: I will be honest with God, are you suggesting otherwise?
iano writes:
So necessary did he think convincing you was that he sent his Holy Spirit into the world for that very purpose. To convict the world of sin and righteousness and judgment. You say it's not necessary for him to convince you.
stile writes:
True. I did say that. What makes you think He hasn't already convinced me?
Your not a Christian?
So, since I already agree with what God wants to convince me of... that I need to ask for forgiveness from those I've wronged, including (most of all) Him. Therefore, either I've already been convinced, or as soon as He attempts to convince me, I'll agree.
I'm not sure that that asking for forgiveness is the primary thing that God needs to convince you of. Central to things seems to be total acknowledgement that you can no longer continue to operate independently of God. That you must give up your place on the throne of your life. In that would be a realisation that you require forgiveness for having insisted upon your way for so long. Forgiveness as an element of the whole show of salvation.
Besides, that a person has been convinced of their need for anothers forgiveness doesn't mean the conviction is a salvation-related one, to my mind. There is a call of conscience issued to all, afterall. That is to say, that a person is convicted by the general call of conscience doesn't mean tbe conviction is a salvation-related .
And to this, it will be easy enough for God to convince me, since I already agree. And the judgement is His, not yours. Stop your unverifiable assumptions and let me deal with God the way God wants to be dealt with, in a personal and honest manner.
Or do you disagree? Do you really think God doesn't want to deal with people personally and honestly?
Lots of people agree that starvation in Africa is a terrible thing. They are convinced. But not to the point of putting their hands deep into their pockets. You say that you are convinced. And I believe you when you say you are. But how deep is it possible for conviction to plunge to? Could I suggest that you couldn't know until you get there?
As to personally and honestly dealing with God. If the Bibles general description of fallen man is that he has a deceitful heart and is enslaved to sin (as a junkie is enslaved to heroin) how do you suppose yourself, as a fallen man, to deal honestly with God?
-I already agree I'm an out and out sinner.
Okay. Not that that in itself counts for a whole lot.
-I certainly can be honest with myself, God granted me the skills to do so. Are you saying God did not grant me the reasoning skills I possess? Are you saying God doesn't want me to use the skills he gave me to the best of my ability?
A gospel of grace is required precisely because man has become foolish in his reasoning. He thinking is skewed. He cannot reason correctly about the things of God. He is blind to the things of God in fact. Which is why his salvation doesn't rely on him at all.
-I don't attempt to contribute in any positive way for my own salvation. That was the whole point of this thread, I find the act of positive-contribution toward getting salvation to be dishonourable.
You were going to rely on your dealing honestly with God weren't you?. If such a thing could contribute could you not boast of that? "I am saved partily due to my honest dealing with God". Boasting of anything at all is clearly excluded in the gospel.
-I agree that salvation is the work of God, I'm trying to get you to understand such. You seem to think your personal desires have some sort of input on my salvation. They do not. My salvation depends on an honest relationship between me and God. The judgement is His alone, not yours.
I beg to differ. Jesus commissioned his disciples (of which I am one) to tell others of the good news. This is not to say I contribute to your salvation in any way. I'm just a messenger. And part of the messaging involves correcting error where it is plain. You have repeated your salvation partly dependant upon you (your honesty) in the same paragraph where you say salvation is of God
You, my friend, have to do precisely... nothing. And if you do nothing he'll push you out the window of the 43rd floor so that you can fall to your death.
True, doing nothing isn't a good thing. That's why I'm doing something, I'm being honest.
Do read it again. I said that you had to do precisely nothing. That it is good that you do precisely nothing. You having to do something is called a works-based salvation. Even if you think the thing done is a noble thing.
If God doesn't want honesty, then I agree that I'm toast. Because I don't know where to turn if I can't be honest with myself, there are too many unverifiable options, too many words of man to distinguish from. All I can do is follow the path of honesty to where it leads. At least this way, I'm honouring God's creation of this reality.
There you go again. Relying on yourself. Relying on your own ability to discern truth from lie. I can only speak from experience Stile. And what I found was that God was more than capable of ensuring I came to him.
All I needed to do was nothing - which wasn't all that hard in my case. As far as I was consciously concerned, I wasn't looking for God. So was unlikely to be "doing things" to help things along
Edited by iano, : No reason given.
Edited by iano, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 146 by Stile, posted 01-25-2008 10:46 AM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 170 by Stile, posted 01-28-2008 10:22 AM iano has replied

Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


Message 169 of 308 (451637)
01-28-2008 9:58 AM
Reply to: Message 154 by ICANT
01-25-2008 6:16 PM


God created reality
ICANT writes:
Much is said on this site concerning the Bible that it is a myth just mans words so what am I to believe?
Here's the dilemma the way I see it: There may or may not be a creator of this reality. We have a Bible. The Bible may or may not from God. The Bible, even if from God originally, may be corrupted by man today, in any of it's existing copies. The world cannot be corrupted by man. If there was a God, He created the world and everything we can learn from it.
So there's two ways we can gain knowledge from God:
1. The Bible - which you and I agree may possible be corrupted by man.
2. The world - directly from God, and is definitely not corrupted by man.
Therefore, to me, anything that is directly from God (the world) trumps anything that could have been corrupted by man.
For God to be honorable He has to have preserved the truth for us. It is our job to find it.
I agree. God left us the entire world, uncorruptable by man, for us to search out his preserved truth. The Bible is helpful, yes, but is outdated and very likely non-original. The world is original, it is present-day material, and it's uncorruptable.
I have a copy of the New American Bible copyrighted 1987 by the Catholic Press. I can find every thing I have said to you in that book it is just expressed in a little different way here and there.
I can do the same thing with the New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures by the Watchtower Society.
I can find everything I've said to you in this world, with evidence. My first-hand, direct evidence from God trumps your past-along, used by men with agendas (TV evangelists), extremely beyond second-hand, possibly corrupted Bibles, any and all versions.
I sense that you are very dissatisfied with what you have been taught and have come to the conclusion that it is not honorable.
No, not at all. I don't bother myself with whether or not God is honourable, just as I don't bother myself with whether or not any other person on this planet is honourable. I bother myself with whether or not I am honourable, that's all. I can't change God, or other people (for the most part). I can change me, so I concern myself with me. Other people are capable of taking care of themselves.
All I want is for myself to live an honourable life. To search for truth honourably, I need to be honest and look at all the information available. Especially the information that is first-hand and directly from God (if He exists), the world itself.
Like you said we can only strive to do our best try to make sure we have it right but we can not fault God if our forefathers messed it up so bad we can't find the truth.
Absolutely true. We can't fault God because His first-hand knowledge is staring us right in the face. The world around us, the reality we live in. It has nothing to do with our forefathers messing anything up because it's impossible for them to corrupt reality.
I agree as you do that I could be 100 percent wrong. But if the available information I have been able to gather is correct I don't have to worry about it. But how can I know it is right?
We all have the assumption that this reality exists, and that we can interpret it in some meaningful way.
That is my only assumption.
You have another assumption, that the information you're gathering from the Bible is also correct.
I have to believe that God is honorable enough to make sure the truth is available to me.
The truth is available, direct from reality.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 154 by ICANT, posted 01-25-2008 6:16 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 171 by ICANT, posted 01-28-2008 10:36 AM Stile has replied

Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


Message 170 of 308 (451642)
01-28-2008 10:22 AM
Reply to: Message 168 by iano
01-28-2008 9:19 AM


Honesty is a bad thing?
iano writes:
Stile writes:
What makes you think He hasn't already convinced me?
Your not a Christian?
I thought you said it's possible that I wouldn't be aware that God's convinced me already, no? How does being a Christian have anything to do with it, if it's possible I may not even be aware?
There is a call of conscience issued to all, afterall. I mean, that a person is convicted by the general call of conscience doesn't mean tbe conviction is a salvation related one.
Fair enough, I'll leave it to God to judge. Does that seem okay?
But how deep is it possible for conviction to plunge to? Could I suggest that you couldn't know until you get there?
Of course. I'll leave the depth of my conviction for God to judge.
A gospel of grace is required precisely because man has become foolish in his reasoning. He thinking is skewed. He cannot reason correctly about the things of God. He is blind in fact. Which is why his salvation doesn't rely on him at all.
Okay. How does this alter that the only thing I can do is be honest with myself to the best of my abilities?
I may be foolish, and skewed, and horribly off centre, but what else can I do if it's exactly what my God-given abilities are telling me is the right thing? Shouldn't I be honest and trust what God has given me?
You were going to rely on your dealing honestly with God weren't you?. If such a thing could contribute could you not boast of that. "I am saved partily due to my honest dealing with God". Boasting of anything at all is clearly excluded in the gospel.
I'm sure it's possible to boast of a lot of things. How does this change that I should be honest with myself and God? Do you think I should lie to God? Maybe try to cheat or hide things from God? Is that your suggestion? I really think being honest is the best path.
iano writes:
Stile writes:
My salvation depends on an honest relationship between me and God. The judgement is His alone, not yours.
I beg to differ. Jesus commissioned his disciples (of which I am one) to tell others of the good news. This is not to say I contribute to your salvation in any way. I'm just a messenger. And part of the messaging involves correcting error where it is plain. You have repeated your salvation partly dependant upon you (your honesty) in the same paragraph where you say salvation is of God.
You don't think the judgement is up to God? The judgement is yours? That doesn't seem right to me. And again, as a self-proclaimed disciple of Jesus Christ... your suggestion is that I should not be honest with God. What dishonest tactic do you suggest? Should I steal from God? How about bargaining, should I attempt to strike a deal with God? What is your suggestion, if I should not be honest?
That it is good that you do precisely nothing. You doing something is called a works based salvation. Even if you think the thing done is a noble thing.
I think you're confused. I'm not being honest with God in order to get salvation. I'm just being honest with God. That's it. Period after that sentence. All I'm doing is being honest with God instead of lying or hiding things from Him. On a completely separate note, salvation is God's gift to grant, and He can do so by His judgement. Not yours. Salvation is God's judgement.
There you go again. Relying on yourself. Your own ability to discern truth from lie. I can only speak from experience Stile. And what I found was that God was more than capable of ensuring I came to him.
But I'm not relying on myself. All I'm doing is not lying and not tricking and not hiding from God. What's left is being honest. It's easier to say "being honest" than to say "not lying, not tricking, not hiding, not stealing, not manipulating..." And I'm certainly not doing any of that for salvation. The whole point of this thread was that I found it dishonourable to ask for (or attempt to earn) salvation.
Are you seriously suggesting that I should not be honest with God? How do you propose I attempt to lie or manipulate an all-knowing God? It doesn't even make sense to me. I think you need to re-think your position if you seriously want people to be dishonest with God.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 168 by iano, posted 01-28-2008 9:19 AM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 183 by iano, posted 01-28-2008 7:52 PM Stile has replied

ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 171 of 308 (451646)
01-28-2008 10:36 AM
Reply to: Message 169 by Stile
01-28-2008 9:58 AM


Re: God created reality
Hi Stile,
Top of the morning,
Stile writes:
The truth is available, direct from reality.
You don't think reality has not been corrupted by man?
I look at the universe and see an entity that is very delicate, beautiful and where precision timing to 1/200 billionth of a second according to Dr. Hawking was required or we would not be here.
Then I am told it just happened by chance.
You see anything wrong with that picture?
I see a human being that is beyond comprehension. With capabilities that is beyond our wildest dreams. With a brain that science would love to capture the capabilities of and put it into a compuuter.
Then I am told it just happened by accident.
You see anything wrong with this picture?
God tells me the universe is magnificient and He streached it out.
God tells me man is wonderously made.
I like the last two pictures best.
That is being honest with myself.
Have fun,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 169 by Stile, posted 01-28-2008 9:58 AM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 172 by NosyNed, posted 01-28-2008 11:06 AM ICANT has replied
 Message 173 by Stile, posted 01-28-2008 11:50 AM ICANT has replied

NosyNed
Member
Posts: 8996
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 172 of 308 (451657)
01-28-2008 11:06 AM
Reply to: Message 171 by ICANT
01-28-2008 10:36 AM


Accidents
Then I am told it just happened by accident.
No! As you have been told, over and over and over, this did not happen by accident. It is the result of a process that is capable of a powerful search of what is possible and of producing solutions just like the ones you find so amazing.
Your incredulity and lack of knowledge about the topics of discussion doesn't support your position. It only shows some of the weaknesses of those supporting your side.
At some point it begins to show a lack of honour as well.
Edited by NosyNed, : spellin

This message is a reply to:
 Message 171 by ICANT, posted 01-28-2008 10:36 AM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 174 by ICANT, posted 01-28-2008 1:10 PM NosyNed has not replied

Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


Message 173 of 308 (451671)
01-28-2008 11:50 AM
Reply to: Message 171 by ICANT
01-28-2008 10:36 AM


Honest with the information available
Hello ICANT, I really don't want to talk about how the universe was created or the capabilities of our brains. As far as I can see, they are irrelevant to the discussion we're having.
We're talking about being honest with ourselves and the information available to us.
It doesn't matter how the universe was created, we're here now and we can either be honest with the information available, or we can turn a blind eye.
It doesn't matter how amazing our brains are, we have the ability to search for truth and to use reasoning skills. We can be honest in our usage of these abilities or we can turn a blind eye.
ICANT writes:
God tells me the universe is magnificient and He streached it out.
God tells me man is wonderously made.
I like the last two pictures best.
That is being honest with myself.
Good. I have nothing against this position. In fact, it's one I sometimes hold myself as I also like that picture. I'm not sure of how likely the possibility is, but that's for me to deal with my own honesty.
So, lets assume it's true for right now. I know I'm flip-flopping a lot between this assumption, but let's see where this goes.
God created the magnificent universe and He stretched it out.
God created the wonderously made human.
I'm going to study the magnificent universe He directly created. I'm going to search the direct evidence He presents us with, evidence that cannot be corrupted.
I agree that if you take someone's word that "our brain just happened by accident", then that is a human-corruption. But the beauty of God's creation is that you don't have to take their word. The brain is right there if you want to study it, or look at it, or learn about it. You don't have to take anyone's word for it.
God's creation is all around us, and it's uncorruptable by man. Sure, men can try to talk corrupt things about it, but we have to look out for that everywhere. I'm sure you're aware of many corrupt men talking horrible things about the Bible even. That doesn't change the fact that we can read the Bible for ourselves, and it doesn't change the fact that we can search reality for truth ourselves.
The only difference is that the printed words of the Bible may also be corrupted already. The reality we live in is uncorruptible.
I don't see how we can honestly search for the truth of God, yet not take His direct evidence of reality over the second-hand, possibly corrupt evidence of the Bible.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 171 by ICANT, posted 01-28-2008 10:36 AM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 175 by ICANT, posted 01-28-2008 1:31 PM Stile has replied

ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 174 of 308 (451686)
01-28-2008 1:10 PM
Reply to: Message 172 by NosyNed
01-28-2008 11:06 AM


Re: Accidents
Hi Ned,
NoseyNed writes:
No! As you have been told, over and over and over, this did not happen by accident. It is the result of a process that is capable of a powerful search of what is possible and of producing solutions just like the ones you find so amazing.
Ned I was talking about the beginning of everything.
Are you being a little less than honorable and trying to get me in trouble.
I sure hope not.
Do I understand you to say what happened in the beginning was designed or at the least directed?
We are talking about Christians being honorable and honest here and I am trying to be.
Have fun,

This message is a reply to:
 Message 172 by NosyNed, posted 01-28-2008 11:06 AM NosyNed has not replied

ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 175 of 308 (451693)
01-28-2008 1:31 PM
Reply to: Message 173 by Stile
01-28-2008 11:50 AM


Re: Honest with the information available
Hi Stile,
Stile writes:
yet not take His direct evidence of reality over the second-hand, possibly corrupt evidence of the Bible.
Throughout the thread I have been talking about What I believe is a very honorable God giving me all I need to be able to come to the proper conclusion about Him. I am a Bible thumper so I tend to go the way of the written Word.
I can read the copies of the Greek Septuagint. I studied the Hebrew but it is practically useless today because you can not take Hebrew of the last 1000 years and determine what the Old Testament said.
Jesus did quote the Septuagint, as did the Apostles including Paul who could have probably quoted the entire record him being a Pharisee of the Pharisees. He was their teacher.
I think Paul was honorable and gave us his revelations from God while carefully comparing those things to what he had learned.
Maybe I am just gullible when I believe the Holy Spirit can guide me in all truth concerning God. As Jesus promised the disciples He would do when He sent Him.
Now you are telling me God has some real evidence in reality that I have not found because if I did I would not believe the way I do.
If that information is available and you know what it is would you be so kind and to point it out to me.
And please be honest to yourself and to me.
have fun,

This message is a reply to:
 Message 173 by Stile, posted 01-28-2008 11:50 AM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 176 by Stile, posted 01-28-2008 1:50 PM ICANT has replied

Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


Message 176 of 308 (451698)
01-28-2008 1:50 PM
Reply to: Message 175 by ICANT
01-28-2008 1:31 PM


An honest search
I believe the Holy Spirit can guide me in all truth concerning God. As Jesus promised the disciples He would do when He sent Him.
I don't understand how this position contradicts anything I've said.
Now you are telling me God has some real evidence in reality that I have not found because if I did I would not believe the way I do.
If that information is available and you know what it is would you be so kind and to point it out to me.
It's things like there being no world-wide flood, or how unlikely it is that there actually was any exodus event. Things like throughout Leviticus and Deuteronomy that tell us how to treat offenders in horrible ways. We can look to reality and understand how these things are most likely not true. The Bible may say it's right to stone someone to death for whatever... but reality says that stoning someone to death (for anything) is cruel at best, and an extreme abuse of force at worst.
I'm not saying I have any answers. I'm just saying that if you're searching for answers, don't forget about the information God's given you first hand... the very world we live in.
And please be honest to yourself and to me.
Of course I'll try, but we can all be wrong and mistaken, even just being honest. That's why it's nice that we can all always look at reality, the direct evidence. Which, if He exists, would be directly from God.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 175 by ICANT, posted 01-28-2008 1:31 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 177 by ICANT, posted 01-28-2008 2:26 PM Stile has replied

ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 177 of 308 (451705)
01-28-2008 2:26 PM
Reply to: Message 176 by Stile
01-28-2008 1:50 PM


Re: An honest search
Hi Stile,
Stile writes:
It's things like there being no world-wide flood,
I have never discussed this on here and have no desire to, as it would take hundreds of hours of reserarch that I am not willing to waste the time doing. But I will give you my thoughts. If Science is correct that all the land mass was in one place at one time which by the way confirms Genesis 1:9.
The Bible says the earth (land mass) was divided in Genesis 10:25.
Science confirms this in saying tectronics is responsible for the shifting of the land masses.
If the land masses was divided, mountains were formed, and oceans were created after the flood, What would you expect to find to prove or disprove it happened?
Now as to the laws that were given to the children of Israel do you think they worked?
If you will check there are many peoples in history that have disappeared from the face of the earth. You will also find that in 1948 Israel became a nation again. They had not been a nation in 1900+ years.
You must take into consideration God gave these laws to the descendents of Abraham no one else. He wanted to preserve His chosen race and He did. You disagree with the methods fine, but it worked they are still here. Although several nations have tried to destroy them and have killed millions of them in the process. Yet they still exist and must exist or God would be a liar.
You see He made Abraham a promise, and He made David a promise. God keeps his promises.
I he didn't that would make God dishonorable.
Is this all you got against my Bible?

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 176 by Stile, posted 01-28-2008 1:50 PM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 178 by Stile, posted 01-28-2008 4:44 PM ICANT has replied

Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


Message 178 of 308 (451757)
01-28-2008 4:44 PM
Reply to: Message 177 by ICANT
01-28-2008 2:26 PM


Re: An honest search
Is this all you got against my Bible?
Against? I don't have anything against your Bible, or any Bible. I like the Bible, it has a lot of good lessons written out. I'll likely make my (future) kids read it with me. I just think it's been written by people, and is therefore prone to error. Where reality was not written by people, and possibly written by God. Therefore, if reality has any sort of conflict with the Bible, then reality is right and the Bible is wrong. This doesn't make the Bible bad or silly or useless, it just means the Bible isn't fully descriptive of reality. Which, on giving that a second thought, is rather obvious.
I just think it's best to be honest with what we find. If the Bible says something like 'milk only comes from goats' and I clearly see that milk also comes from cows, I'm going to believe reality.
I'm not saying that quote's actually in the Bible I just want to point out that I think reality trumps the Bible, as long as we're being honest with ourselves. And since both are from God, and only one has the possible chance of being corrupted by men... I don't even see how reality trumping the Bible goes against basic beief in God as our creator.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 177 by ICANT, posted 01-28-2008 2:26 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 179 by ICANT, posted 01-28-2008 4:59 PM Stile has replied

ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 179 of 308 (451767)
01-28-2008 4:59 PM
Reply to: Message 178 by Stile
01-28-2008 4:44 PM


Re: An honest search
Hi Stile,
Stile writes:
I don't even see how reality trumping the Bible goes against basic beief in God as our creator.
Does reality trump my view of what happened according to the Bible?
Concerning the possibility of a world wide flood.
As I said my God is honorable and trust worthy.
Have fun,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 178 by Stile, posted 01-28-2008 4:44 PM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 181 by nator, posted 01-28-2008 5:40 PM ICANT has not replied
 Message 184 by Stile, posted 01-29-2008 9:46 AM ICANT has replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 180 of 308 (451788)
01-28-2008 5:30 PM
Reply to: Message 167 by ICANT
01-27-2008 9:32 PM


Re: Good is greater than God
quote:
But God is not punishing you. You are punishing yourself.
Bullpucky.
I didn't create hell, I don't choose to go there, I didn't eat the apple, I didn't do anything wrong.
If I end up in hell for something I didn't do, it will be god's fault for either sending me there or allowing me to end up there.
quote:
A woman who has aids gets pregnant and brings a child into the world who has aids. Is that God's fault?
In this analogy, it would be the mother who is equivalent to God, since the mother is the one "sentencing" the child to a life with AIDS.
That's why my analogy is better:
It is like putting a murderer's child to death for the crime her father did.
If I had nothing to do with Adam and Eve's sin, then why should I be punished for something I didn't do?
How can an All-Powerful God not have control over who goes to Hell and who doesn't?
quote:
Because He has enough power to limit what He will or will not do.
That is contradictory and illogical.
quote:
If He controled it you would not have freewill and have the ability to choose where you wanted to spend eternity.
If all we have to do is choose, then obviously hell is empty.
quote:
After all they have accepted Him if they are His people.
So, only people who have accepted God are "His people"?
He doesn't care about anybody except those who have accepted him? He can sit by and watch as many souls suffer in eternal torment?
Again, no honor and a cruel tyrant.
So, can someone do God's will if they don't believe in God?
quote:
Short answer: No.
Will Ghandi burn in Hell forever, then?
All those millions and millions of people over the millenia since Jesus lived who have never had the opportunity to hear the Gospel are burning in Hell?
Again, your God is a cruel, sick tyrant.
Edited by nator, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 167 by ICANT, posted 01-27-2008 9:32 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 182 by ICANT, posted 01-28-2008 6:33 PM nator has replied

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