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Author Topic:   Evolutionary superiority
bluegenes
Member (Idle past 2477 days)
Posts: 3119
From: U.K.
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 34 of 302 (452237)
01-29-2008 7:31 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Hill Billy
01-28-2008 11:41 PM


Hill Billy writes:
Evolutionists feel superior.
All of them? Does this mean that they think that they are an elite that will go to eternal heaven, unlike those who don't share their beliefs? Or is that someone else?
They value education above all else and because they have education their positions have more value, their words have more value, even their Kwikie Marts are better.
There are "evolutionists" who are educated at every level, from high school drop out to College Professor. While it could well be true that the higher up the formal education ladder, the more likely an individual would be to be an "evolutionist", I'm sure there's not a clear cut division of any sort.
It seems that evolutionists come here to debate motivated by a desire to crush their opponents and wallow in their superiority, while creationists come to debate out of a sincere concern for our souls. After all, is it not written that " Adam named his wife Eve, because she would become the mother of all living." Genesis 3:20.
So you feel that creationists are morally and spiritually superior to evolutionists, it seems.
Creationists think they know God.Evolutionists think they know everything.
Biologists do research because they think they know everything?
So the questions are:
1. How did evolutionists come to the conclusion that they are more valuable people?
Are you sure it isn't the ones who are going to heaven and telling others that they won't be who are deceiving themselves about their value? Have you really thought this through?
2. What might the future implications of this trend be?
(I'd say things don't look so good for the evolushun of us hillbillies.)
You won't be extinct for a while yet, I'm sure. After all, the flat earth society still exists to show us that faith can be a very powerful force against evidence based observation.
Most likely, due to cultural evolution, your descendants in the next few generations will mutate into evolutionists.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Hill Billy, posted 01-28-2008 11:41 PM Hill Billy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 44 by Hill Billy, posted 01-29-2008 9:45 PM bluegenes has not replied

  
bluegenes
Member (Idle past 2477 days)
Posts: 3119
From: U.K.
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 85 of 302 (452714)
01-31-2008 6:31 AM
Reply to: Message 82 by Hill Billy
01-31-2008 2:15 AM


Hill Billy writes:
See, I'm not sure how many folks are alive on this planet, but precious few are fortunate enough to be born into the privileged position that allows for higher education.
True. In the highly religious countries of what used to be called the third world, many don't even get the chance to learn how to use written language. Believing in all kinds of creation myths is standard in such societies.
But haven't you ever noticed that those who are educated tend to be the ones pushing for the spread of education, for increased education budgets, etc.? Far from being an elite, guarding their precious information, they tend to want to spread it. All the "first world" countries are countries which made great strides in spreading education throughout the population in an attempt to achieve universal literacy and numeracy during the nineteenth and twentieth centuries, from this one in the west to Japan in the east. Education is arguably the underlying secret of producing these high life expectancy low infant mortality "privileged" societies.
The gift of literacy is an enormously important one, and once achieved, it leaves us as individuals with the choice of whether and to what extent we use it. By definition, everyone participating in EvC is literate, and therefore we have access to a mountain of information.
If you want to play the poor, uneducated, under-privileged working class guy, go ahead. But I left the formal education system at age 16, never to return, and went to work, common in this country in my generation. And I say that once people are truly literate, then there's no excuse for a high level of ignorance of the world around us. It can be regarded as a choice.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 82 by Hill Billy, posted 01-31-2008 2:15 AM Hill Billy has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 86 by LucyTheApe, posted 01-31-2008 7:21 AM bluegenes has replied

  
bluegenes
Member (Idle past 2477 days)
Posts: 3119
From: U.K.
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 89 of 302 (452741)
01-31-2008 9:05 AM
Reply to: Message 86 by LucyTheApe
01-31-2008 7:21 AM


LucyTheApe writes:
bluegenes writes:
True. In the highly religious countries of what used to be called the third world, many don't even get the chance to learn how to use written language. Believing in all kinds of creation myths is standard in such societies.
Hey? Like those ignorant catholic Irish who have the best performing economy in Europe because they provide free education at all levels.
I did say "the religious countries of the third world." Catholics are not known for their literal belief in creation mythologies, and Ireland's modern economy comes with increasing secularism, and coincides with the removal of religious laws, like those on divorce. It's always been Catholic, and was Catholic for many centuries without a booming economy. Progress is made in spite of lingering superstition, not because of it. The Philippines and central and south America are probably more devoutly Catholic.
And wasn't it the early evolutionists that tried to measure the intelligence of a race based on the size of their skull. Putting themselves on the top of the list.
Racists may well have done that, and probably before 1859 as well as after, but no serious and good scientists of the nineteenth century would have put themselves on the top of the list, because the results wouldn't have!
If you're going to start on an "evolutionists are racists" tack, most people in nineteenth century Europe would be considered racist by today's standard, and the overwhelming majority of the population were Christian, so you can do the maths on that. And in the very Christian eighteenth century, when it could still be dangerous not being a Christian, there was the wonderful Christian slave trade, run entirely by practising Christians, and also the beginnings of the takeover of your continent at the expense of its "heathen savages".
Have you ever met an indigenous Tasmanian?
It's a bit like trying to meet an indigenous Caribbean Islander (wiped out by good Catholics, not educated by them).
Well I live in Australia where the politicians, who received their education for free, are continually changing the laws to make it more and more difficult for the average person to get an education, unless of course, you can cash up front.
I was talking about intelligent educated people wanting to spread education, not politicians.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 86 by LucyTheApe, posted 01-31-2008 7:21 AM LucyTheApe has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 90 by LucyTheApe, posted 01-31-2008 9:58 AM bluegenes has replied

  
bluegenes
Member (Idle past 2477 days)
Posts: 3119
From: U.K.
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 94 of 302 (452804)
01-31-2008 11:04 AM
Reply to: Message 90 by LucyTheApe
01-31-2008 9:58 AM


LucyTheApe writes:
And it's my belief that the apostasy/secularism is a direct result of the materialism that has come about due to the growth of the economy.
I partially agree, but I think it's a kind of complex feedback loop. Practical knowledge can increase wealth, and also challenge traditional religion. But it's not just really wealth, but perhaps the security that goes with it. Low infant mortality rates and high life expectancy may be far more important in reducing religiosity than whether or not people own a car, or two or three, or four.
It's far from uniform around the world, but a high general quality of life and high education levels certainly seem to go with lower levels of religiosity. And religion certainly thrives on poverty and insecurity.
It is possible to have a racist scientist.
Certainly. Although in this day and age, as amongst educated non-scientists, they're pretty rare.
Don't we all, even though we may not like to admit it, have a streak of racism.
I think we're much more "culturalist", and racism is largely a product of culturalism, because people of different appearance tended to come from radically different cultures, so racial and cultural attributes were confused.
Edited by bluegenes, : typo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 90 by LucyTheApe, posted 01-31-2008 9:58 AM LucyTheApe has not replied

  
bluegenes
Member (Idle past 2477 days)
Posts: 3119
From: U.K.
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 153 of 302 (453808)
02-04-2008 9:38 AM
Reply to: Message 127 by pelican
02-03-2008 2:06 AM


Heinrik writes:
Seriously, taking it as true that : evolutionists believe themselves more valuable and taking it that the value is placed on levels of education, in turn showing levels of intelligence, then I would say the answer is : because they don't actually feel valuable as human beings alone. They need a label that lifts them high enough to look down on someone else to make them feel better about themselves.
Why don't they just become Christian creationists, then? They can believe that they are in an elite minority who'll go to heaven while most of humanity burns in hell, so it's the ultimate label of superiority. And it can be done easily, by a simple act of faith. They wouldn't have to bother finding out anything about the world about then.
Edited by bluegenes, : typo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 127 by pelican, posted 02-03-2008 2:06 AM pelican has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 156 by pelican, posted 02-04-2008 5:32 PM bluegenes has replied

  
bluegenes
Member (Idle past 2477 days)
Posts: 3119
From: U.K.
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 166 of 302 (453993)
02-05-2008 4:24 AM
Reply to: Message 156 by pelican
02-04-2008 5:32 PM


Heinrik writes:
bluegenes writes:
Why don't they just become Christian creationists, then?
It doesn't give enough credence to their brilliant minds. But like you say, it would be a lot easier.
Or it could be that they're not as talented as the creationists in at least one way. They may not be as capable of telling themselves comforting lies which, amongst other things, would automatically mean that they would be not only superior, but more valuable in the eyes of God. The creationists are automatically and by definition, in their own minds, the most superior and most valuable people on earth.
It is impossible to be a creationist without believing this.
So, what I'm pointing out on this thread is that the accusation of feeling more "valuable", as hillbilly puts it in his O.P., are far better directed at creationists than evolutionists.
If anyone wants to dispute this point, they're welcome to try, and I'll be happy to debate it.... but that they'll lose the debate is something I'm sure of, not just because I'm a typical evolutionist superior debater (of course) but because people who believe that they follow the true religion and that others don't are always an elite in their own minds, regardless of the religion.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 156 by pelican, posted 02-04-2008 5:32 PM pelican has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 168 by pelican, posted 02-05-2008 4:39 AM bluegenes has not replied

  
bluegenes
Member (Idle past 2477 days)
Posts: 3119
From: U.K.
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 218 of 302 (455256)
02-11-2008 5:58 PM
Reply to: Message 215 by Blue Jay
02-11-2008 1:12 PM


Creationists sad need to feel superior
BlueJay writes:
But, most of them don't do that. And, that's why I find that creationists have a superior, condescending attitude.
But the real secret is in a post of mine early on in the thread. Religious people who regard their particular interpretation of their particular religion as the one and only basis for truth inevitably regard themselves as superior to others. They and only they will be going to heaven/paradise, or getting reincarnated further up the socio-economic class structure, or whatever. And it's easy for anyone who's good at lying to themselves to feel this kind of false superiority, and to feel more valued (a word used in the O.P.) by God. All you need is to have faith.
The creationism we deal with here is all really based on various versions of the Abrahamic God as creator, and some creationists on this site express sectarian contempt for their fellow creationists, as well as for the infidel "evolutionists" (and that includes evolutionists who are self-described Christians).
Part of the appeal of following any "true" religious sect may be the feeling of righteousness and superior value it offers. Perhaps the bigger the inferiority complex of an individual, the more likely he or she is to escape from the slings and arrows of reality by adopting fierce adherence to a "true" religion, and the more sectarian they are likely to be.
So there's a bit of unintentional irony in the original post in this thread, because creationists are people who seem to require this delusional feeling of being the elite, valued above others by the God that they worship, and any follower of a "true" religious interpretation of the universe is automatically and by definition claiming superiority over the rest of the world.
It goes with the territory.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 215 by Blue Jay, posted 02-11-2008 1:12 PM Blue Jay has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 219 by nator, posted 02-11-2008 6:25 PM bluegenes has replied

  
bluegenes
Member (Idle past 2477 days)
Posts: 3119
From: U.K.
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 221 of 302 (455282)
02-11-2008 7:26 PM
Reply to: Message 219 by nator
02-11-2008 6:25 PM


Re: Creationists sad need to feel superior
nator writes:
Maybe.
I did say "perhaps" on that part, which is the same thing, and that part of the post is certainly speculative, I agree.
However, the main point stands, and is my repeated reply to the O.P.
People who believe they're part of an elite destined for heaven, by definition, are guilty of believing that they are of more value than others. I think that's irrefutable, and if we're going to get more threads with character attacks on "evolutionists" of the type in the O.P., something inevitable when there's complete absence of evidence for any of the various forms of creationism, then I think that my point is the best way of illustrating the obvious hypocrisy.
The author of the thread, in all the posts he's made, hasn't offered a counter-argument to this point, which I made way back near the beginning of the thread, and that's because it's impossible to do so.
It's partly because of this delusional belief of superiority on the part of creationists that I feel, quite rationally of course, superior to them.

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 Message 219 by nator, posted 02-11-2008 6:25 PM nator has not replied

  
bluegenes
Member (Idle past 2477 days)
Posts: 3119
From: U.K.
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 263 of 302 (455969)
02-14-2008 6:15 PM
Reply to: Message 259 by Hill Billy
02-14-2008 3:57 PM


Hill Billy writes:
There still remains much mystery in this universe.
Absolutely. Do you think there are scientists who disagree with that? Our great great grandchildren will probably be saying the same thing, although they'll know a hell of a lot more than we do.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 259 by Hill Billy, posted 02-14-2008 3:57 PM Hill Billy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 267 by Hill Billy, posted 02-14-2008 9:18 PM bluegenes has replied

  
bluegenes
Member (Idle past 2477 days)
Posts: 3119
From: U.K.
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 273 of 302 (456065)
02-15-2008 9:27 AM
Reply to: Message 267 by Hill Billy
02-14-2008 9:18 PM


Creationist's Higher Value and Superiority
HillBilly writes:
If you don't mind, it seems that you have this impression that Christianity is somehow elite and exclusive, no? See myself, I see it as the opposite, inclusive and, what's the opposite of elite?
Yes and no! If you mean that anyone can join, that's theoretically true. But it's actually anyone who can believe who can join, and become part of the superior club who are more "valued" in the eyes of the God. It's the same with all other "true" religions, Islam for example, so that both you and I are automatically being condemned to a number of hells, and being denied entry to a number of heavens/paradises, regardless of what we believe.
Certainly, Christians want all the world to join up, as do the Muslims and others, but because, in each case, the majority of the world hasn't joined them, they are at present the enlightened elites in their own minds. This can be said, by definition, of all followers of religions that claim exclusive truth and special privileges/rewards for themselves in an afterlife.
Now, we can't believe in them all at the same time. We could say that they're all welcoming, but, as I point out, you have to believe, and how easy is it to make yourself believe that a U.S. science fiction writer of the last century knew the secrets of the universe, and become a scientologist? Try and do it.
Then, if you're genuinely successful, you have to remember that your belief means that you'll end up in the Christian hell, the Muslim hell, and many other hells, all at the same time, as well as getting reincarnated as the poorest of all untouchable hillbillies according to the Hindus, and a lowly worm or insect according to the Jains, etc.
The confidence of creationist Christians in their blind faith based monopoly on truth can be seen all over these threads. You regularly see people attacking areas of science which they know or understand virtually nothing about merely on the basis that I've been describing. They don't feel that they have to understand what they are attacking, because they are special, follow the "true" religion and are privileged in the eyes of the Lord.
So, in your O.P., you talk about the "evolutionists" feeling superior. And I think that that's often true in terms of the scientific side of the discussions held here, simply because we tend to know at least a bit about what we're talking about. But as a group, all "evolutionists" means is people who think that the theory of evolution is a strong scientific theory (that it's well backed by evidence). We certainly do not, as a group, have any reason to believe that we have higher "value" in the eyes of God, or in any other way.
We're just people who happen to be right on one subject, evolutionary biology, that's all. Hardly important in the great scheme of things, as it won't stop us being reincarnated as worms, will it?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 267 by Hill Billy, posted 02-14-2008 9:18 PM Hill Billy has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 274 by ICANT, posted 02-15-2008 10:35 AM bluegenes has replied

  
bluegenes
Member (Idle past 2477 days)
Posts: 3119
From: U.K.
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 278 of 302 (456080)
02-15-2008 11:11 AM
Reply to: Message 274 by ICANT
02-15-2008 10:35 AM


Re: Evolutionist Superiority
ICANT writes:
bluegenes writes:
..."evolutionists" feeling superior. And I think that that's often true in terms of the scientific side of the discussions held here,....
bluegenes if they don't feel superior, Why are they always telling me the Bible does not say this or it says that. When I have 45 years study in the Bible and they don't even believe it?
I said that they often do feel superior about the science. The point about Christian creationism is that the creationists try and bring the Bible into science, and make it a scientific tract. So, that answers your question, really. You could memorise the Bible, but in order to show that Genesis has scientific validity, one year of studying science would be worth more than 45 years spent on the Bible.
Lots of Muslims memorise the Koran. Does that, in your opinion, help them in understanding whether it's true or not? Because Christ is not God in Islam, you, as a Christian, by definition believe the claim that the Koran is the word of God to be false. Have you spent 45 years studying it?
Also, you must know that there are many Christian "evolutionists". So why do you say that evolutionists do not believe in the Bible, when some of them obviously do?
And finally, if you have studied the Bible in such detail, and have such a profound understanding of it, why are you still a Christian?
Try reading it critically just once, for a change.
May the Gods of the Bible (there's more than one) bless you too, if they exist.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 274 by ICANT, posted 02-15-2008 10:35 AM ICANT has not replied

  
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