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Author Topic:   Honour Amongst Christians
nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 181 of 308 (451790)
01-28-2008 5:40 PM
Reply to: Message 179 by ICANT
01-28-2008 4:59 PM


Re: An honest search
quote:
Does reality trump my view of what happened according to the Bible?
Concerning the possibility of a world wide flood.
Yes, of course it does.
Just like reality trumps the Biblical idea of unicorns existing, and that making livestock breed in view of certain kinds of wooden poles will produce spotted offspring, and that rabbits chew cud.
God's work is written in the rocks, the DNA of living creatures, and the stars, not in books written 2000 years ago by superstitious prescientific uneducated nomadic Middle Eastern sheep herders.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 179 by ICANT, posted 01-28-2008 4:59 PM ICANT has not replied

ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 182 of 308 (451820)
01-28-2008 6:33 PM
Reply to: Message 180 by nator
01-28-2008 5:30 PM


Re: Good is greater than God
Hi nator,
nator writes:
In this analogy, it would be the mother who is equivalent to God, since the mother is the one "sentencing" the child to a life with AIDS.
But according to your reasoning God is responsible for the woman therefore He would be to blame.
Your ancestor disobeyed God. Plunging himself and all his descendants into the devils house. God had nothing to do with it.
If you choose to stay in the devils house when it is cast into the lake of fire you will be there also.
Was the first man honorable in doing what he did? No
Was God honorable in providing a way of escape? Yes.
nator writes:
If I had nothing to do with Adam and Eve's sin, then why should I be punished for something I didn't do?
Why should that child have to suffer because momma enjoyed herself?
nator writes:
If all we have to do is choose, then obviously hell is empty.
How can you choose something that you do not believe exists?
nator writes:
So, only people who have accepted God are "His people"?
Yes, although the descendants of Abraham are a chosen people.
nator writes:
Will Ghandi burn in Hell forever, then?
That is between Ghandi and God.
nator writes:
who have never had the opportunity to hear the Gospel
How do you know they never had an opportunity to hear the Gospel?
Besides it is the Church's job today to see that they get that opportunity. Why do you think billions of dollars are spent in that effort?
Before you say it I am not talking about the silver tongue wolves in sheep's clothing that are lining their pockets in the name of helping.
nator writes:
Again, your God is a cruel, sick tyrant.
That being said: Why should my God be honorable and let you live in His estate when you don't even believe in Him and besides that you are calling Him all kind of names.
It makes no difference what you have said or done if you were to come to my God truly believing in Him for eternal life He would let you come live in His estate.
nator: What if God does exist?
That makes my God a very honorable God.
Have fun,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 180 by nator, posted 01-28-2008 5:30 PM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 188 by nator, posted 01-29-2008 10:09 PM ICANT has replied

iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 183 of 308 (451829)
01-28-2008 7:52 PM
Reply to: Message 170 by Stile
01-28-2008 10:22 AM


Re: Honesty is a bad thing?
Stile writes:
I thought you said it's possible that I wouldn't be aware that God's convinced me already, no? How does being a Christian have anything to do with it, if it's possible I may not even be aware?
I'm pretty sure I didn't say that. I'm pretty sure I said that you wouldn't necessarily know it was God-at-work-attempting-to-convict-you. Which is a little different to you-having-been-finally-convinced-without-your-knowing-it.
Final conviction is the tipping point into salvation. One of the (many) things that occur at this point is God making a temple of the person so as to take up residence within them. I'd find it hard to conceive of someone NOT knowing that this has occurred. If it has occurred.
There is a call of conscience issued to all, afterall. I mean, that a person is convicted by the general call of conscience doesn't mean the conviction is a salvation related one.
Fair enough, I'll leave it to God to judge. Does that seem okay?
It does. So long as we understand the conviction you experience about you being a sinner or in need of forgiveness might not be the same as the final conviction that God works towards. It could be part of it. But just not final.
Okay. How does this alter that the only thing I can do is be honest with myself to the best of my abilities? I may be foolish, and skewed, and horribly off centre, but what else can I do if it's exactly what my God-given abilities are telling me is the right thing? Shouldn't I be honest and trust what God has given me?
The Bible is fairly clear on the lot of fallen man, Stile. Such men are "under the sway and rule of the wicked one (satan)". Such men are, in a manner of speaking, sin addicts. These are NOT God-given abilities and certainly NOT abilities conducive to trusting yourself. Once accepting of this biblical slant you can see the dilemmas mounting as to the accuracy of your self-assessment.
What else can you do? The answer for such a one as you and me (as I once was) is clearly and absolutely... nothing. In so far as God manages to push you along you will move along in his direction. That you would perceive yourself as decision maker along the way is neither here nor there. If saved and looking back with 20/20 hindsight you would see that it was God who managed to manoevre you into positions. That it was him using circumstance to steer you through the maze towards him.
I'm sure it's possible to boast of a lot of things. How does this change that I should be honest with myself and God? Do you think I should lie to God? Maybe try to cheat or hide things from God? Is that your suggestion? I really think being honest is the best path.
It is indeed possible to boast of lots of things. Just not of contributing to one's own salvation in any way, shape or form.
As to lying to God? Of course you can. The lie-recipients ability to know you are lying doesn't alter your ability to lie. Just look at young children lying through their beautiful little teeth at you. Does your ability to perceive the lie alter the fact of their lying?
In order to be honest with God you would need some stable, neutral platform from which to strike off. What is that platform - given the fall? Hopeless addiction to sin? Blindness to truth? At emnity with God? This is how the Bible describes fallen man.
You don't think the judgement is up to God? The judgement is yours? That doesn't seem right to me. And again, as a self-proclaimed disciple of Jesus Christ... your suggestion is that I should not be honest with God. What dishonest tactic do you suggest? Should I steal from God? How about bargaining, should I attempt to strike a deal with God? What is your suggestion, if I should not be honest?
I am not judging. I'm commenting from a position. I can't help the fact that I am saved. I can't help the fact that many here are not. All I can do is comment. Not judge.
As pointed out, your ability for honesty is fatally compromised. You might see it as you looking through a particular shade of lens. If true is white all you will see from your perspective is tinted red. Try as you might, you yourself cannot see white. Even on my side of the fence, where seeing white becomes possible, I can only see faintly, through a glass darkly as Paul puts it.
I'm not holier-than-thou. I'm a beggar pointing the starving to where they can find food. That is the so called "great commission" To be pointers.
I think you're confused. I'm not being honest with God in order to get salvation. I'm just being honest with God. That's it. Period after that sentence. All I'm doing is being honest with God instead of lying or hiding things from Him. On a completely separate note, salvation is God's gift to grant, and He can do so by His judgement. Not yours. Salvation is God's judgement.
We've already dealt with the problem of honesty.
Salvation is indeed Gods to give. And he decides whether his criterion for saving a person is met or not. That is not to say that a person like me cannot know what that criterion is or whether a person hasn't met it yet. It's not judgment on my part. Merely observation.
But I'm not relying on myself.
Of course you are. Your posts drip words indictating your contributing. For instance..
All I'm doing is:
- not lying
- not tricking
- not hiding from God.
"All you are doing" is your work, your effort, your willpower, your version of honesty. Such things will result in your not lying at times, not tricking at others, trying not to hide as best you know how - when you might otherwise want to. This all takes effort on your part. Expenditure of effort.
I'm not judging Stile but your very words don't seem to be able to free you from the notion that you must do "something" to contribute to your salvation. Even if it's only trying to be honest.
Romans is the book in which the mechanics of the gospel is laid out. Introducing it, Paul tells us that he is not ashamed of the gospel of God because "the gospel is the power of God unto salvation for all who believe".
The power of God is what saves men. Not the power of men
Edited by iano, : No reason given.
Edited by iano, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 170 by Stile, posted 01-28-2008 10:22 AM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 185 by Stile, posted 01-29-2008 9:57 AM iano has replied

Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


Message 184 of 308 (451932)
01-29-2008 9:46 AM
Reply to: Message 179 by ICANT
01-28-2008 4:59 PM


Reality and the Bible
ICANT writes:
Does reality trump my view of what happened according to the Bible?
Concerning the possibility of a world wide flood.
I don't really know. I don't understand geology as well as the more-inclined. I also don't really know what the Bible says about the flood, and I certainly don't know what you think concerning the possibility of a world wide flood.
The good news is it doesn't really matter what I think or know. What matters is what you find in an honest search of reality and the Bible.
Taking your first question on it's own "Does reality trump my (ICANT's) view of what happened according to the Bible", I'd say yes, it should.
Reality is direct evidence from God. The Bible is indirect evidence from God, and has possibly been corrupted over the years it's been in the hands of man.
This doesn't mean that those who spout things about reality are right and you are wrong. It means that what you find in reality, after an honest search, should out-weigh that which you find in the Bible, after an honest search.
Or, that's how I see it, anyway. You're free to call me a crazy crackpot

This message is a reply to:
 Message 179 by ICANT, posted 01-28-2008 4:59 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 186 by ICANT, posted 01-29-2008 2:36 PM Stile has replied

Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


Message 185 of 308 (451936)
01-29-2008 9:57 AM
Reply to: Message 183 by iano
01-28-2008 7:52 PM


You don't seem to understand
I really don't think you understand what I'm saying. So I'm only going to reply to the one part of your message where all the errors stem from. Hopefully this time it won't get lost in a big reply.
iano writes:
I'm not judging Stile but your very words don't seem to be able to free you from the notion that you must do "something" to contribute to your salvation. Even if it's only trying to be honest.
I really, really don't have any notion that I must do "something" to contribute to my salvation. At all.
The only notion I have that I must do "something" is in the same notion that everyone must always be doing "something". While talking to me, you are not doing nothing, you're doing something, you're being honest, your trying to persuade me, you may be sitting... you're doing things because it's impossible for us to do nothing. This is the only sense that I'm being honest. I'm simply being honest because I have to be something, just like everyone else.
Now, let's tack on the extra part of doing something to contribute to my salvation. In this sense, I'm doing absolutely nothing. I gurantee you. It's abhorrent to me in the worst sense, it's extemely dishonourable for me to try and do anything at all to earn salvation in any way. I agree with you completely that doing anything to get salvation is a bad thing. And I asure you that I'm doing nothing in order to gain salvation.
I hope you understand this now.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 183 by iano, posted 01-28-2008 7:52 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 192 by iano, posted 01-30-2008 5:19 AM Stile has replied

ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 186 of 308 (452114)
01-29-2008 2:36 PM
Reply to: Message 184 by Stile
01-29-2008 9:46 AM


Re: Reality and the Bible
Hi Stile,
Stile writes:
Taking your first question on it's own "Does reality trump my (ICANT's) view of what happened according to the Bible", I'd say yes, it should.
Did you misread what I said?
Message 177
If Science is correct that all the land mass was in one place at one time which by the way confirms Genesis 1:9.
The Bible says the earth (land mass) was divided in Genesis 10:25.
Science confirms this in saying tectronics is responsible for the shifting of the land masses.
If the land masses was divided, mountains were formed, and oceans were created after the flood, What would you expect to find to prove or disprove it happened?
Reality science says land was connected at one time.
Bible says all land in one place in Genesis 1:9.
Reality science says continents have shifted to present positions.
Bible says earth [land mass] was divided in Gen. 10:25.
Reality science says there was no flood.
Bible says there was a world wide flood in Gen.7:6
Reality and Bible conflict. Therefore God is wrong and not honorable.
But wait a minute the flood was prior to the division of the land, the forming of the mountains and oceans.
My question was, What could we expect to find to prove a flood that would confirm Gods Word.
God's Word is still true as you could find nothing unless it is all the places you find that there was a local flood that got moved to where it is today.
You see my God is true His word is true He is very honorable.
Man just has not been very honest in his search. Because he is searching for what he think's he ought to find.
Have fun,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 184 by Stile, posted 01-29-2008 9:46 AM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 187 by Stile, posted 01-29-2008 4:10 PM ICANT has not replied
 Message 189 by nator, posted 01-29-2008 10:12 PM ICANT has replied

Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


Message 187 of 308 (452161)
01-29-2008 4:10 PM
Reply to: Message 186 by ICANT
01-29-2008 2:36 PM


Re: Reality and the Bible
ICANT writes:
Reality and Bible conflict. Therefore God is wrong and not honorable.
I don't understand where this comes from. Maybe I'm confused by your position.
Way back in Message 154, you said:
ICANT in Message 154 writes:
When the Ten Commandments were etched into stone what was the method of recording information? There was no tape recorders, no computers, and no paper. So what did they use. As I understand it they used word of mouth for a long time. So if you get a couple of dishonest people involved what is the end product.
I took this to mean that you understood that the Bible was passed down by "word of mouth for a long time", and therefore may possibly be corrupt. And that this corruption is no fault of God's, but simply by man's.
Therefore, if reality and the Bible don't mesh, there's no dishonour on God, simply some dishonour on those men who used the Bible to their own means or perhaps were simply mistaken in their word of mouth passing down of the passages.
My question was, What could we expect to find to prove a flood that would confirm Gods Word.
My point is that we should focus on finding God's direct true Word from reality rather than looking to confirm some word that's likely been corrupted in the word of mouth translations for hundreds of years.
Man just has not been very honest in his search. Because he is searching for what he think's he ought to find.
I don't have anything I'd like to (or ought to) find. I'm just searching, that's all. I think it's better to search for God in reality than in something that passed through word of mouth for such a long time.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 186 by ICANT, posted 01-29-2008 2:36 PM ICANT has not replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 188 of 308 (452267)
01-29-2008 10:09 PM
Reply to: Message 182 by ICANT
01-28-2008 6:33 PM


Re: Good is greater than God
quote:
That makes my God a very honorable God.
Yeah.
In the same way that Mr Scarfo is "honerable" if he agrees to not burn down my house if I give him protection money.
Will Ghandi burn in Hell forever, then?
quote:
That is between Ghandi and God.
Now hold on.
You said:
quote:
You receive the Holy Spirit when you are born again. That is not manifest in raising the dead, speaking in tongues, rolling on the floor or some other emotional outburst. It is manifest in someone doing God's will. By their works ye shall know them.
By which I took it to mean that it is our good works and how we treat other people that we will be able to tell who is doing god's will.
Next, I asked:
So, can someone do God's will if they don't believe in God?
And you replied:
quote:
Short answer: No.
You are the one who says he knows the will of God, and it is you who rather firmly stated that By their works ye shall know them.
How can you say that Ghandi, who brought justice to many millions through the promotion of nonviolence and peace, is not doing God's work?
God will send Ghandi to Hell just becasue he isn't born again? Will God allow murderers and rapists who become born again christians while in prison in, but not Ghandi?
What kind of God would send a great man of peace and justice to Hell, while wothless, death row converts go to heaven?
quote:
How do you know they never had an opportunity to hear the Gospel?
It is only logical.
There was no such thing as mass media for some time after Christ's death, ICANT. The Apostles were only a few men. How fast do you think they could have spread the good news? Did any of them make it to Australia, do you think? How about South America? The Mongolian Steppes?
It wasn't until around two millenia later that European Christian missionaries made it to some of those places.
All those people who never heard about Christianity in 2000 years were doomed to Hell becasue they were not born again, and did not accept Jesus as their personal savior?
And, why won't you answer the question:
If I had nothing to do with Adam and Eve's sin, then why should I be punished for something I didn't do?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 182 by ICANT, posted 01-28-2008 6:33 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 190 by ICANT, posted 01-30-2008 12:05 AM nator has replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 189 of 308 (452268)
01-29-2008 10:12 PM
Reply to: Message 186 by ICANT
01-29-2008 2:36 PM


Re: Reality and the Bible
quote:
Reality and Bible conflict. Therefore God is wrong and not honorable.
I didn't quite realize that you worshipped the Bible as a god.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 186 by ICANT, posted 01-29-2008 2:36 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 191 by ICANT, posted 01-30-2008 12:24 AM nator has not replied

ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 190 of 308 (452294)
01-30-2008 12:05 AM
Reply to: Message 188 by nator
01-29-2008 10:09 PM


Re: Good is greater than God
Hi nator,
nator writes:
By which I took it to mean that it is our good works and how we treat other people that we will be able to tell who is doing god's will.
Did you read all that part of the post in Message 161?
Phat writes:
So how do we know who has this Holy Spirit and who doesn't?
ICANT writes:
We don't.
You receive the Holy Spirit when you are born again. John 3:6 says "that which is born of the Spirit is spirit." That is not manifest in raising the dead, speaking in tongues, rolling on the floor or some other emotional outburst. It is manifest in someone doing God's will. By their works ye shall know them.
Phat asked a question. How do we know who has the Holy Spirit?
My answer was "We don't".
You receive the Holy Spirit when you are born again.
This is not manifest certain things listed above.
It is manifest "IN" someone doing God's will.
By their (the born again Holy Spirit filled people) will be known by their.
Nowhere does it say you are born again and receive the Holy Spirit by doing good works.
nator writes:
How can you say that Ghandi, who brought justice to many millions through the promotion of nonviolence and peace, is not doing God's work?
Do you think I will change my answer because you reworded the question?
Same answer: That is between him and God.
nator writes:
There was no such thing as mass media for some time after Christ's death, ICANT. The Apostles were only a few men. How fast do you think they could have spread the good news? Did any of them make it to Australia, do you think? How about South America? The Mongolian Steppes?
I will answer this question with a question.
Why is it that everytime a new people was discovered they had some kind of God they were worshiping?
Maybe you can find your answer in there.
nator writes:
And, why won't you answer the question:
If I had nothing to do with Adam and Eve's sin, then why should I be punished for something I didn't do?
You sound like my kids used too. Daddy why can't we do........?
About the 3rd time they asked they got taken out behind the woodshed and introduced to the board of education.
Now how many times have I answered this question for you.
You can find your answer here. Message 90
You can find your answer here. Message 130
You can find your answer here. Message 160
You can find your answer here. Message 167
You can find your answer here. Message 182
Have fun,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 188 by nator, posted 01-29-2008 10:09 PM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 193 by nator, posted 01-30-2008 9:11 AM ICANT has not replied

ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 191 of 308 (452297)
01-30-2008 12:24 AM
Reply to: Message 189 by nator
01-29-2008 10:12 PM


Re: Reality and the Bible
Hi nator,
nator writes:
I didn't quite realize that you worshipped the Bible as a god.
I don't but it is His Word.
Below is the analysis that you cherry picked this line out of:
quote:
Reality and Bible conflict. Therefore God is wrong and not honorable.
Message 186
ICANT writes:
Reality science says land was connected at one time.
Bible says all land in one place in Genesis 1:9.
Reality science says continents have shifted to present positions.
Bible says earth [land mass] was divided in Gen. 10:25.
Reality science says there was no flood.
Bible says there was a world wide flood in Gen.7:6
Reality and Bible conflict. Therefore God is wrong and not honorable.
But wait a minute the flood was prior to the division of the land, the forming of the mountains and oceans.
My question was, What could we expect to find to prove a flood that would confirm Gods Word.
In the message 180 you asked why I would not answer your question that I have already answered 5 times to you and probably that many to other posters.
In this message you have picked out something and taken it out of context to make a statement.
This is the last post I will answer from you that you pull these kind of stunts.
nator my patience is long but you have reached the point I agree with Hill Billy.
EvC Forum: Evolutionary superiority
Now is you want to be honorable and debate in an honorable way I will respond. But if you debate in a dishonorable way I will not reply.
After all that is what this thread is about honor.
Goodnight,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 189 by nator, posted 01-29-2008 10:12 PM nator has not replied

iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 192 of 308 (452351)
01-30-2008 5:19 AM
Reply to: Message 185 by Stile
01-29-2008 9:57 AM


Re: You don't seem to understand
stile writes:
This is the only sense that I'm being honest. I'm simply being honest because I have to be something, just like everyone else.
Fair enough, but to finally clarify. Can I take it that your being honest leans more towards being compelled to honesty than towards something you figure is the best way forward and should actively try to be?
The only notion I have that I must do "something" is in the same notion that everyone must always be doing "something".
An interesting point.
If God-at-work-on-you is what compelled you from a former life of dishonesty/disinterest into a position of honesty/interest, then your honesty and interest wouldn't be the result of you doing something. Rather, it would be the result of him doing something and you not doing something to resist that happening (assuming you were permitted the option to resist). In which case you would be where you are now precisely because you did nothing to prevent it happening. Or insufficent to prevent it happening.
Carry forth that notion - up to the point where God delivers you to and beyond the point of salvation. It can be said then, that your salvation was of God. That you did nothing of which you can boast by way of contribution.
Which takes us away from the original issue...
If I find it honourable to receive a gift only when it's not asked for, and Christianity insists that I ask for God's forgiveness in order to receive salvation...
If is the case that you are compelled by Gods work to ask (at that point in your journey) just as God's work compels you to honesty (at this point in your journey) would you be happy that Christianities insistance doesn't render it dishonourable?
Edited by iano, : No reason given.
Edited by iano, : No reason given.
Edited by iano, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 185 by Stile, posted 01-29-2008 9:57 AM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 194 by Stile, posted 01-31-2008 8:54 AM iano has replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 193 of 308 (452390)
01-30-2008 9:11 AM
Reply to: Message 190 by ICANT
01-30-2008 12:05 AM


Re: Good is greater than God
quote:
Why is it that everytime a new people was discovered they had some kind of God they were worshiping?
Because people ignorant of nature and needing explanations for why things happened, invented them.
Haven't you ever read about Cargo Cults?
And you haven't addressed the issue at all.
All of those millions of people who lived and died after Christ, but, due to the limitations of technology and travel at the time, His followers couldn't reach to tell them about it are currently suffering in Hell, according to you, since they weren't "Born Again".
quote:
Same answer: That is between him and God.
So, it doesn't matter if Ghandi brought justice and nonviolence to millions if he isn't born again, right?
Isn't that what you said?
How does either issue make any sense if God is honorable?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 190 by ICANT, posted 01-30-2008 12:05 AM ICANT has not replied

Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


Message 194 of 308 (452736)
01-31-2008 8:54 AM
Reply to: Message 192 by iano
01-30-2008 5:19 AM


How do we tell?
iano writes:
Can I take it that your being honest leans more towards being compelled to honesty than towards something you figure is the best way forward and should actively try to be?
I'm not sure. How would I know the difference? If on one side I have decisions I make because they seem like the best decisions to make, and on the other I have a choice where I can't-choose-otherwise (since I'm being compelled). How can I tell if I'm actually choosing something, or just not-choosing the opposite?
If God-at-work-on-you is what compelled you from a former life of dishonesty/disinterest into a position of honesty/interest, then your honesty and interest wouldn't be the result of you doing something. Rather, it would be the result of him doing something and you not doing something to resist that happening (assuming you were permitted the option to resist). In which case you would be where you are now precisely because you did nothing to prevent it happening. Or insufficent to prevent it happening.
Sure, could very well be. I'm not sure how I can identify the difference.
It can be said then, that your salvation was of God. That you did nothing of which you can boast by way of contribution.
Sure, we could say that. Even if we didn't say that, and we said it was all my decisions and my choices, I wouldn't be boasting about anything either. So, again, with both I've got nothing to boast about, so how do I tell the difference?
If is the case that you are compelled by Gods work to ask (at that point in your journey) just as God's work compels you to honesty (at this point in your journey) would you be happy that Christianities insistance doesn't render it dishonourable?
No, I wouldn't be happy. Being compelled to ask for a gift doesn't somehow make getting that gift honourable. "I find it honourable to receive a gift only when it's not asked for". Regardless of why or how I'm asking, the asking removes any honour. It may certainly still be good, but there's no honour in receiving something you asked for.
So I agree that if God goes around compelling people, I may certainly well eventually get compelled to ask for forgiveness/salvation, but when I do, it will be without honour. And that would make me disappointed (unless, of course, I was somehow compelled not to be disappointed as well).

This message is a reply to:
 Message 192 by iano, posted 01-30-2008 5:19 AM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 195 by iano, posted 02-01-2008 8:01 AM Stile has replied

iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 195 of 308 (453020)
02-01-2008 8:01 AM
Reply to: Message 194 by Stile
01-31-2008 8:54 AM


Re: How do we tell?
Stile writes:
I'm not sure. How would I know the difference?
You probably wouldn't until the time when you could look back with 20/20 hindsight. When I used the word "lean" I was trying to avoid notions of dead certainty from your perspective. It might have been an impossible question to answer from your perspective in fact.
Perhaps we can only go so far as settling on your view that your contributing to your salvation in any way is a dishonourable thing and something you would want to avoid. You might even agree that you would want to be steered, by God, into avoiding even unconscious attempts to contribute to your salvation - so dishonourable would you find that.
Even if we didn't say that, and we said it was all my decisions and my choices, I wouldn't be boasting about anything either.
It's not so much a matter of whether you would or not. It's a matter of whether you could or not. Clearly, if you could contribute to your salvation you could decide to boast of the decisions you made which proved contributary.
If is the case that you are compelled by Gods work to ask (at that point in your journey) just as God's work compels you to honesty (at this point in your journey) would you be happy that Christianities insistance doesn't render it dishonourable?
No, I wouldn't be happy. Being compelled to ask for a gift doesn't somehow make getting that gift honourable. "I find it honourable to receive a gift only when it's not asked for". Regardless of why or how I'm asking, the asking removes any honour. It may certainly still be good, but there's no honour in receiving something you asked for.
As outlined earlier, being compelled to ask [/i]is part of the gift[/i]. Asking is an auto-consequence of final and complete conviction (by God). The gift is received and unwrapped the moment God finally convinces you.
Being brought to that final conviction is that which could have been prevented by you. The road along which your will had opportunity to say a final No! to God. The road along which God's efforts converning you weren't tipping-point compelling.
By the way, what's the name of that painting in your avatar. Lovely lighting.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 194 by Stile, posted 01-31-2008 8:54 AM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 196 by Stile, posted 02-01-2008 8:37 AM iano has replied

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