Before Big Bang God or Singularity

Hi cavediver, So are you saying there was space-time before the Big Bang?Have fun,

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"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

No, of course not...

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When you make a wrong assumption do your Professors revile you or do they explain where you are wrong?

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You are assuming that you are capable of understanding the explanation. It's happened to me before. You have to understand that most of this stuff is very very hard to explain without using mathematics. I'm not talking about 1+2 kinda math. I'm talking about pages after pages of abstract mathematical concepts that would make physics and math grad students have a really bad headache.It's happened to me before.

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I do not claim to be an expert on science that is why I am here to pick these smart peoples brain so I can learn.

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Then pick something else that is less complicated. People spend their whole lives studying these things, and you expect physicists on here to be able to explain them to you in a few short paragraphs? If it were that simple, I wouldn't be in college right now.

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Now if your definition of expert is a drip under pressure I would have to claim that one because these guys have put me under pressure and keep me there. But how else can I learn at my age.

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Ok, so I'm assuming you're an old guy. I have a friend that goes to the university of chicago, and he told me that he met a woman who was in her late 60's that was working on her phd. Honestly, these things that you are discussing are not things that can be questioned and answered, especially when one or two parties involved didn't have the background.

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If my conclusion I draw from what Dr. Hawking said is wrong all anybody has to do is to take his words and show me my assumptions are incorrect.

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See, this is why people here are frustrated with you. You are making 2 assumptions that are completely wrong: 1 You are assuming that these kinds of things can be expressed only in words and 2 you are assuming that you are capable of understanding the explanation.Last year, I attended a seminar where there was a guest lecturer talking about quantum states and how physicists and engineers have been able to build the quantum computer using concepts that only a few years ago were purely conceptual and abstract. Anyway, most of the lecture the lecturer was writing mathematical stuff on the board that I couldn't make head or tail out of them. The grad students there were scratching their heads, too. In fact, a few professors admitted that they got lost in some areas.These kinds of stuff can't be adequately explained in a few short words and they certainly can't be understood by someone that hasn't spent years or even decades thinking about them and working on them.

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No I am called everything in the book but no explanation.

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Sometimes, you have to realize that you can't understand everything there is to understand. If these concepts are that easy to explain and understand, I'm pretty sure a lot more people would be physicists and professors.

Hi cavediver, Message 56Message 59Message 62It is impossible according to what you say in the above quotes for us to be having this conversation unless:In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. Gen. 1:1My original question: Message 1
In this topic I would like to discuss which is the best explanation for the origin of the universe. God or the Singularity including the Big Bang.Prenise 1: Singularity including the Big Bang is the best explanation for the orgin of the universe. FalasifiedPremise 2: God is the best explanation for the orgin of the universe.Maybe, Maybe not but not falsified.Have fun,

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"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

The question pertains directly to the meaning of the word "singularity". While you may think you have a grasp of it -- you don't.ABE
It also has to do (I think) with cavedivers comment about the singularity not existing.Edited by NosyNed, : added a bit

What? Based on your phenomenal understanding of physics? Well, I guess I must concede the point. Well done, you've proved God created the Universe. Are you going to be on TV tomorrow? If so, I'll look out for you.Goodnight

Hi cavediver, No sorry to say cavediver I have not proved God created the Universe.
I wish that was possible but I know it is not.I think what we have discussed does prove what many even Hawking was putting forth in his unbounded theory is that we need something better than the Big Bang Theory as now accepted and taught to explain the orgin of the universe.I would love to get into a study of the eternal universe but I don't know that I will have time. I will pick your brain from time to time and see how it is coming along.Have fun,

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"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

The steady state theory was disproven years ago. No need to go there again.

Hi Taz, Who said anything about steady state theory?Or does that disprove string theory and super string theory also?
If it does there is a lot of scientist wasting a lot of time and money trying to perfect the Super string theory that will be the end all theory.But as I said I don't have the time to discuss those things so forget I made this post as I will not answer anything posted concerning it.Have lots of fun now,

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"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

You think you with your armchair musing and infinitesimal knowledge of the subject have managed to understand ANYTHING, never mind 'proving' something in a field of study covered by thousands of the brightest scientists in the world... you have not listened to anything that has been explained to you in this thread. You have your deluded conclusions and you're sticking with them. Well done. I guess it's true about old dogs...What we have proved is that you have an arrogance and pride beyond belief that you will be called upon to explain one day...Edited by cavediver, : No reason given.

Alright, ICANT, if you would be kind enough, could you tell me what you think a singularity is?
In your own words, not an definition.I'll work from there.Edited by Son Goku, : Can I spell?, "your" not "you"

Can I have a go. This is the picture that I have come away with after reading Greene, Hawking and others.Hawking defines it this way: A point in space time at which the space time curvature becomes infinite. That sounds great and I'm sure it's correct but it goes beyond my understanding so I'm wondering if the following is correct.It seems to me that a singularity is a dimensionless point of infinite or almost infinite energy. If I can go further it seems that particles are pretty much the same thing except with defined amounts of energy.

Hi Son Goku,Long time no see about six months. What does what I think a singularity is have to do with my OP?"In this topic I would like to discuss which is the best explanation for the origin of the universe. God or the Singularity including the Big Bang."I have not put forth a definition for a singularity and one is not needed.I quoted some information Hawking gave in summation of a lecture concerning how a singularity is formed.Where he stated how a singularity could be created.
Since the conditions he said was necessary for a singularity could not have existed prior to T=0 for the singularity to have been created.
Correct me if I am wrong when I say until the Big Bang there was no gravity, there was no space-time there was no matter, in other words all things were created in the expansion.I concluded from that information. That The Singularity could not have been created and thus responsible for the expansion that our universe came from.Therefore as the Op was stated I concluded that.Premise 1: Singularity including the Big Bang is the best explanation for the origin of the universe. FalsifiedPremise 2: God is the best explanation for the origin of the universe.Maybe, Maybe not but not falsified.Have fun,

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"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

Alright, good start.First of all, I'll begin with what you might call an operational definition of a singularity. A singularity is a point where a physical quantity becomes undefined. Usually due to the appearance of underlying physics not fully appreciated in the model.A simple example is the strength of the electromagnetic field. It's usually an easily measurable quantity, measured in Newtons per Coulomb and it's described by Maxwell's equations. However very near an electron the value of the electromagnetic field strength is predicted by Maxwell's equations to approach infinite. This is simply because Maxwell's theory doesn't take into account the quantum mechanical nature of matter on this scale and the quantum mechanical nature of the electromagnetic field itself.When you do take this into account you get Quantum Electrodynamics and the picture of a smooth classical electromagnetic field is replaced by what you might call a quantum electromagnetic field, that's lumpy (hence the word quantum) and probabilistic. The little lumps of the field being called photons.Another way you can have a singularity is when the quantity is no longer a sensible one. For instance car manufacturers often measure the brittleness of the windscreen glass. Higher values indicate that it is more brittle. There are theories which predict the brittleness of the glass. These theories also say the brittleness increases with temperature. However they also predict the brittleness becomes infinite at a certain temperature, which is a singularity in the theory. That temperature is the melting point of the glass. When the glass is a liquid then of course brittleness no longer makes sense and becomes undefined, hence the singularity.Now Hawking and Penrose in the 1960s showed that Einstein's General Relativity has singularities in two cases:
(1) Inside black holes.
(2) At the Big Bang.
The quantity that develops the infinity is the space time curvature as you mentioned.Keeping the interpretation given above, this means that in these places General Relativity breaks down and "space time curvature" or "spacetime" breaks down as a sensible concept and/or new physics emerges.
We need a new theory, almost certainly a quantum one, to account for this. It is provisionally named Quantum Gravity.

Well just to make sure we're on the same page. I've given a response to GDR about the definition of a singularity. See what you think of it.The existence of the Big Bang is a different issue, one completely supported by physical evidence. We now know, to a high confidence interval, that the universe was super hot and very small 13.7 billion years ago. Before this point we are encapable of tracking what went on, due to the appearance of exotic new physical effects we do not understand. A singularity is the mathematical warning sign that this exotic physics has appeared.