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Author Topic:   Refereed (peer reviewed) Journals: Do They Insure Quality or Enforce Orthodoxy?
randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4918 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 1 of 24 (452680)
01-31-2008 12:53 AM


Refereed Journals: Do They Insure Quality or Enforce Orthodoxy?
....
Today, Einstein’s papers would be sent to some total nonentity at Podunk U, who, being completely incapable of understanding important new ideas, would reject the papers for publication. “Peer” review is very unlikely to be peer review for the Einsteins of the world. We have a scientific social system in which intellectual pygmies are standing in judgment of giants.
....
Philip Anderson, a winner of the Nobel Prize for Physics opines that “in the early part of the postwar [post-WWII] period [a scientist’s] career was science-driven, motivated mostly by absorption with the great enterprise of discovery, and by genuine curiosity as to how nature operates. By the last decade of the century far too many, especially of the young people, were seeing science as a competitive interpersonal game, in which the winner was not the one who was objectively right as [to] the nature of scientific reality, but the one who was successful at getting grants, publishing in Physical Review Letters, and being noticed in the news pages of Nature, Science, or Physics Today....
http://www.iscid.org/papers/Tipler_PeerReview_070103.pdf
I think Tipler is correct that the peer-review process via refereed journals is deeply flawed and serves as much to simply enforce orthodoxy as to insure quality. He gives many good examples to back up his point.
Edited by randman, : No reason given.
Edited by randman, : No reason given.
Edited by Adminnemooseus, : Changed topic title from "a harsh word on peer-review....good article" to "Refereed (peer reviewed) Journals: Do They Insure Quality or Enforce Orthodoxy?" Also fixed some odd line breaks.

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by PaulK, posted 01-31-2008 1:53 AM randman has replied
 Message 9 by Granny Magda, posted 01-31-2008 6:23 AM randman has not replied
 Message 12 by Dr Adequate, posted 01-31-2008 3:52 PM randman has replied
 Message 15 by nator, posted 01-31-2008 5:21 PM randman has replied

  
randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4918 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 4 of 24 (452692)
01-31-2008 1:58 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by PaulK
01-31-2008 1:53 AM


did you read the article?
just curious......can you post something about the article along with ranting against ID?
Tipler talks of some specific ID papers, in physics not biology, that he faced serious criticism over, and he was nearly denied tenure and was denied grants because of his ID or creationist stances, in physics though, not biology.

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 Message 6 by PaulK, posted 01-31-2008 2:28 AM randman has replied

  
randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4918 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 7 of 24 (452700)
01-31-2008 2:46 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by PaulK
01-31-2008 2:28 AM


Re: did you read the article?
well, you expressed your opinion. Here are some examples Tipler points to where the peer-review process resisted truth.
If one reads memoirs or biographies of physicists who made their great breakthroughs after, say, 1950, one is struck by how often one reads that “the referees rejected for publication the paper that later won me the Nobel Prize.” One example is Rosalyn Yalow, who described how her Nobel-prize-winning paper was received by the journals. “In 1955 we submitted the paper to Science.... The paper was held there for eight months before it was reviewed. It was finally rejected. We submitted it to the Journal of Clinical nvestigations, which also rejected it.” (Quoted from The Joys of Research, edited by Walter Shropshire, p. 109).
Another example is Gnter Blobel, who in a news conference given just after he was awarded the Nobel Prize in Medicine, said that the main problem one encounters in one’s research is “when your grants and papers are rejected because some stupid reviewer rejected them for dogmatic adherence to old ideas.” According to the New York Times (October 12, 1999, p. A29), these comments “drew thunderous applause from the hundreds of sympathetic colleagues and younger scientists in the auditorium.”
In an article for Twentieth Century Physics, a book commissioned by the American Physical Society (the professional organization for U.S. physicists) to describe the great achievements of 20th century physics, the inventor of chaos theory, Mitchell J. Feigenbaum,
described the reception that his revolutionary papers on chaos theory received: Both papers were rejected, the first after a half-year delay. By then, in 1977, over a thousand copies of the first preprint had been shipped. This has been my full experience. Papers on established subjects are immediately accepted. Every novel paper of mine, without exception, has been rejected by the refereeing process. The reader can easily gather that I regard this entire process as a false guardian and wastefully dishonest. (Volume III, p. 1850).
Earlier in the same volume on 20th century physics, in a history of the development of optical physics, the invention of the laser by Theodore Maiman was described. The result was so important that it was announced in the New York Times on July 7, 1960. But the leading
American physics journal, Physical Review Letters, rejected Maiman’s paper on how to make a laser (p. 1426).
Scientific eminence is no protection from a peer review system gone wild. John Bardeen, the only man to ever have won two Nobel Prizes in physics, had difficulty publishing a theory in low-temperature solid state physics (the area of one of his Prizes) that went against the established view. But rank hath its privileges. Bardeen appealed to his friend David Lazarus,who was editor in chief for the American Physical Society. Lazarus investigated and found that “the referee was totally out of line. I couldn’t believe it. John really did have a hard time with [his] last few papers and it was not his fault at all. They were important papers, they did get published, but they gave him a harder time than he should have had.” (True Genius: The Life and Science of John Bardeen, p. 300).
Kind of makes you think the process is more like high school and as much about social cliques as discovering scientific truth.
Edited by randman, : No reason given.

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randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4918 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 11 of 24 (452870)
01-31-2008 3:31 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by PaulK
01-31-2008 7:41 AM


Re: did you read the article?
Winston Churchill said "It has been said that democracy is the worst form of government except all the others that have been tried." and it may well be that peer review is the worst system - except for the alternatives.
Democracy has been modified here in America to help prevent it from trampling on individual rights which have no absolute place in a pure democracy.
Likewise, Tipler does not advocate abandoning peer-review, just modifying it.

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randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4918 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 14 of 24 (452880)
01-31-2008 5:09 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by Dr Adequate
01-31-2008 3:52 PM


nice civil response
Didn't realize Tipler was insane in your eyes. Apparently Tulane and some noted scientists like Wheeler don't think so, however.

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randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4918 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 17 of 24 (452890)
01-31-2008 5:35 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by PaulK
01-31-2008 5:21 PM


Re: did you read the article?
Explain how Tipler's ideas increase the social clique aspect. Having more qualified people review more controversial ideas opens more prospects for new ideas rather than depending on reviewers trained to never think outside the box.

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randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4918 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 18 of 24 (452892)
01-31-2008 5:37 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by nator
01-31-2008 5:21 PM


wrong
First off, it is impossible to measure the degree it is having a negative effect. If my car has a problem and will still drive 45, that doesn't mean just because we can move forward, everything is OK.
How much faster could we go? How many orthodox paradigms are keeping good science out?
He gives specific examples worth noting.

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randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4918 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 20 of 24 (452907)
01-31-2008 6:31 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by PaulK
01-31-2008 5:42 PM


Re: did you read the article?
Not really. He still allows for the old system but makes room for another tier to consider papers that more greatly challenge existing paradigms. You can call that cliquey (not a real word I suppose), but it's no more so than the existing system, and it has a signficant advantage of putting papers before people with more faculty for certain papers and subjects.

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randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4918 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 23 of 24 (453368)
02-02-2008 12:18 AM
Reply to: Message 22 by nator
02-01-2008 7:33 PM


Re: nice civil response
I can assure you that if he was a new PhD looking to get hired to a tenure track position and he was flogging the crap he is today, he would never be hired.
You so sure about that? I suggest you read the article in the OP because he was nearly denied tenure over anti-religious bigotry and some other ways he challenged scientific orthodoxy, according to him at least, and I think there is good reason to believe he is telling the truth.
Tulane, to their credit, didn't adopt your attitude and granted him tenure.

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