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Author Topic:   How are biological evolution and linguistic evolution similar?
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 4 of 15 (452455)
01-30-2008 12:17 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by akhenaten
01-30-2008 8:04 AM


Language evolution happens through the gradual accumulation of random non-directed changes in the variation present in the vocabulary, syntax, and grammar of a language.
I don't think the changes in vocabulary, syntax, and grammer are random...
Language, unlike biological evolution, has a purpose.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by akhenaten, posted 01-30-2008 8:04 AM akhenaten has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 6 by akhenaten, posted 01-30-2008 11:53 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 7 of 15 (452789)
01-31-2008 10:43 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by akhenaten
01-30-2008 11:53 PM


I don't doubt that languages evolve.
What I want to describe is that it's not like the whole nation gathers together once a year to decide on changes to the language.
You seem to want to describe it in a way that can be used exactly the same and still describe biological evolution:
Biological evolution is driven by selection pressures of the environment on random unconscious changes in the variation present in genes in a species.
Language evolution happens through the gradual accumulation of random unconscious changes in the variation present in the vocabulary, syntax, and grammar of a language as selection pressures act on those raw changes.
Sure, they are very similiar but why do you want to describe them in the exact same way? What's the point?
And don't you think that sorta hides the differences that do exist?
What sayeth ye? Are the changes that emerge in language random? I say yes in that they are unforseen (maybe not completely).
They can be unconscous, but I don't think we should eliminate that they can also be conscious.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by akhenaten, posted 01-30-2008 11:53 PM akhenaten has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by akhenaten, posted 01-31-2008 2:05 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 10 of 15 (452850)
01-31-2008 1:59 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by akhenaten
01-31-2008 1:42 PM


A word like television is coined for an immediate need. You're right about that.
But what about the word "father"? Who consciously and deliberately created that word?
Nobody. A better example would have been "mother". In almost every language, the word for mother begins with the "Mmmm" sound...
It can't be coincidence and it certainly wasn't planned that way.
But that doesn't mean that no words are (like television).
My point is that some are conscious and some are unconscious, it doesn't have to be all or none.

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New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 12 of 15 (452863)
01-31-2008 2:51 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by akhenaten
01-31-2008 2:05 PM


I agree that they are very different and I don't want to negate those differences, but I still think you can abstract out the similarities.
Absolutely. I just don't think the best way to do that is with two simple statements of the same form, but with one saying "biological" and the other saying "linguistic" evolution.
What's the point? Well, most opponents of evolution have a much easier time accepting language evolution (because they won't deny the evidence from historical writings). They would inadvertently have to concede principles in language evolution that they deny in biological evolution.
With all the mental gymnastic they have to do to maintain their beliefs, what makes you think they won't get over this hurdle?

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 Message 11 by akhenaten, posted 01-31-2008 2:05 PM akhenaten has not replied

  
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