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Author Topic:   The Tesla Challenge
LucyTheApe
Inactive Member

 Message 46 of 54 (452773) 01-31-2008 10:30 AM Reply to: Message 44 by tesla01-31-2008 9:28 AM

Re: The greatest force of all
I think I see what you mean.

Take for example Hawkings' theory of black holes, which has been disproven. If your theory is right and the strong force (or some other force) act at the atomic level to increase the density of matter then you would surely see an increase in gravity even to the point that light can't escape.

 the problem: if a smaller object was to be tweaked to produce this attraction, the attraction to the earth by an orbiting starship would be the same for the starship orbiting earth, which means that the earth would be greatly affected by the ship.

That's not a problem. For example a handful of the sun would weigh about 1 1/2 times it's own weight on earth.

 the other problem: if the strong force was to increase in atoms the atoms would loose structure and implode.

Why?

 it explains why gravity is attraction by density, and not size. because a larger object can have less gravity than a smaller object that is more dense. the more dense object has more collective sharing of the strong force.

Gravity is related to mass. An object that's ten times as big as another object with the same mass, has the same gravitational attraction.

There does seem to be very dense spots in our galaxy.

 This message is a reply to: Message 44 by tesla, posted 01-31-2008 9:28 AM tesla has responded

 Replies to this message: Message 47 by tesla, posted 01-31-2008 1:08 PM LucyTheApe has not yet responded

tesla
Member (Idle past 2138 days)
Posts: 1198
Joined: 12-22-2007

 Message 47 of 54 (452832) 01-31-2008 1:08 PM Reply to: Message 46 by LucyTheApe01-31-2008 10:30 AM

Re: The greatest force of all
 That's not a problem. For example a handful of the sun would weigh about 1 1/2 times it's own weight on earth.

i mean that it would be the same as an object of equal density. an earth orbiting earth, which would affect the oceans as well as other things if we had an earth orbiting earth.

 Why?

a planet spins around the sun, and can very close to the sun, and then slingshot very quickly away, like a bubble in water around a drain. but when the planet becomes to close, that it cant escape the field, it "goes down the drain" so to speak.

the strong force is balanced. i wonder if you can verify that fission is a weakening of this force..

anyways, its logical to me, that if the force becomes to great for an atoms nucleus, (or maybe the electrons and neutrons that are around it) that it would fuse.

but thats the "theory" oh yeah you quoted "loose"
i meant lose.

 Gravity is related to mass. An object that's ten times as big as another object with the same mass, has the same gravitational attraction.

exactly, but doesn't equal mass mean the same amount of atoms?

proximity is definitely important as far as atoms being too far away, so what would be "too close"? is a good question anyway, but i don't have that answer.

then proximity of atoms also has bearing on the shared strong force. as my theory is anyway.

Edited by tesla, : added more thoughts on proximity

keep your mind from this way of enquiry, for never will you show that not-being is
~parmenides
 This message is a reply to: Message 46 by LucyTheApe, posted 01-31-2008 10:30 AM LucyTheApe has not yet responded

 Replies to this message: Message 50 by New Cat's Eye, posted 01-31-2008 1:52 PM tesla has responded

tesla
Member (Idle past 2138 days)
Posts: 1198
Joined: 12-22-2007

 Message 48 of 54 (452837) 01-31-2008 1:22 PM

a good experiment:

if i took lead, of equal weight of a size of wood, does both the wood and lead have the same amount of atoms?

if i took uranium, and took wood, and they had equal weight, would they also have the same amount of atoms?

keep your mind from this way of enquiry, for never will you show that not-being is
~parmenides
teen4christ
Member (Idle past 3880 days)
Posts: 238
Joined: 01-15-2008

 Message 49 of 54 (452842) 01-31-2008 1:39 PM Reply to: Message 39 by Larni01-31-2008 8:44 AM

Ok, I'm convinced. It really does sound like the wookie defense.
 This message is a reply to: Message 39 by Larni, posted 01-31-2008 8:44 AM Larni has not yet responded

New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member

 Message 50 of 54 (452846) 01-31-2008 1:52 PM Reply to: Message 47 by tesla01-31-2008 1:08 PM

Re: The greatest force of all
Gravity is proportional to mass, not density. The volume of the object doesn't matter.

 doesn't equal mass mean the same amount of atoms?

No. Different atoms have different masses. 5 helium atoms are more massive than 5 hydrogen atoms.

1 gram of helium has less atoms than 1 g of hydrogen.

 This message is a reply to: Message 47 by tesla, posted 01-31-2008 1:08 PM tesla has responded

 Replies to this message: Message 51 by tesla, posted 01-31-2008 2:12 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

tesla
Member (Idle past 2138 days)
Posts: 1198
Joined: 12-22-2007

 Message 51 of 54 (452854) 01-31-2008 2:12 PM Reply to: Message 50 by New Cat's Eye01-31-2008 1:52 PM

Re: The greatest force of all
thanks for forcing me to research. :)

density = mass / volume

Sodium has 11 electrons distributed in the following energy levels:

one s orbital - two electrons
one s orbital - two electrons and three p orbitals (two electrons each)
one s orbital - one electron

i guess all that needs to be done to prove or not prove my theory that gravity and the strong force is related, is see if the output of strong force is equal in items of the same mass.

its really out of my reach. but its just a theory.

keep your mind from this way of enquiry, for never will you show that not-being is
~parmenides
 This message is a reply to: Message 50 by New Cat's Eye, posted 01-31-2008 1:52 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

 Replies to this message: Message 53 by New Cat's Eye, posted 01-31-2008 2:46 PM tesla has responded

tesla
Member (Idle past 2138 days)
Posts: 1198
Joined: 12-22-2007

 Message 52 of 54 (452857) 01-31-2008 2:25 PM

proximity should be taken into account if the numbers don't match tho. just to know for sure.

keep your mind from this way of enquiry, for never will you show that not-being is
~parmenides
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member

 Message 53 of 54 (452862) 01-31-2008 2:46 PM Reply to: Message 51 by tesla01-31-2008 2:12 PM

Re: The greatest force of all
 i guess all that needs to be done to prove or not prove my theory that gravity and the strong force is related, is see if the output of strong force is equal in items of the same mass.

Define "output of strong force" :rolleyes:

Gravity and Strong Interaction are independent and are not related.

Some highlights of the differences between gravity and strong interactions:

quote:
The strong interaction is the most complicated force because it behaves differently at different distances. At distances larger than 10 femtometers, the strong force is practically unobservable, which is why it wasn't noticed until the beginning of the 20th century.

quote:
Gravitation is by far the weakest interaction, but at long distances is the most important force. There are two reasons why gravity's strength relative to other forces becomes important at long distances. The first is that gravity has an infinite range, like that of electromagnetism. The second reason why gravity is important at long distances is because all masses are positive and therefore gravity's interaction can not be screened like in electromagnetism. Thus large celestial bodies such as planets, stars and galaxies dominantly feel gravitational forces. In comparison, the total electric charge of these bodies is zero because half of all charges are negative. In addition, unlike the other interactions, gravity acts universally on all matter. There are no objects that lack a gravitational "charge".

When gravitation's relative strength is set at 1, strong interactions relative strength is on the order of 1038!!!

Not even in the same ballpark, let alone realated.

 This message is a reply to: Message 51 by tesla, posted 01-31-2008 2:12 PM tesla has responded

 Replies to this message: Message 54 by tesla, posted 01-31-2008 3:18 PM New Cat's Eye has not yet responded

tesla
Member (Idle past 2138 days)
Posts: 1198
Joined: 12-22-2007

 Message 54 of 54 (452868) 01-31-2008 3:18 PM Reply to: Message 53 by New Cat's Eye01-31-2008 2:46 PM

Re: The greatest force of all
yeah i get that, my theory about its relation to gravity is that gravity is like an "echo".

its just a theory. i am way over my head in trying to further explain it.

a scientist can prove it right or wrong. me, ill lay your floor or roof your house.

if the theory is true, well i hope the scientist is well funded for haveing explained it :)

keep your mind from this way of enquiry, for never will you show that not-being is
~parmenides
 This message is a reply to: Message 53 by New Cat's Eye, posted 01-31-2008 2:46 PM New Cat's Eye has not yet responded

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