Honour Amongst Christians

Sounds fair to me. But even if I didn't contribute at all to my salvation, I could still boast about it as much as I could if I did contribute. Lots of people boast about plenty of things they really don't have any reasonable stance to boast about. But this is a minor point, and I don't really have a problem with it anyway. Then it is inherent in the gift that it is without honour. This doesn't make the gift any less good, or bad in any way. It's just that there's no honour in it. That's not necessarily a bad thing. There's also no honour in getting a job that you applied for. This certainly can be one of the greatest things, but there's no honour in it, simply because you applied for it.The simple fact that we ask for it (forced into this or not) means there's no honour in receiving it. It doesn't make it dishonourable, or bad, or evil or anything. There's just nothing especially honourable about it. I don't know, I stole it from a website. How honourable is that? Are you sure it's a painting? I just picture-googled "stile" and this was the most comforting picture I found. A stile is just some wood near a fence that helps a farmer climb over and not get cow-dung all over themselves.

All the worlds relgions (including Roman Catholicism) position you w.r.t. God/gods/Enlightenment/Karma/Whatever-The-Positive-Outcome-On-Offer-Is .... depending on your contribution. They all hold that man must somehow make himself right with God. Which permits man to hold his head up before God. This self-standing before God, this independance...is the thing which got man into trouble in the first place. So it's actually a very serious thing.In Christianity, God is the one who brings man into rightstanding with God. ? I repeat. The gift commences on conviction. You didn't ask for that or apply for it. I suspect it is a painting. Just the way the light is in it. I wonder why would anyone picture-google..... "stile". Perhaps you were inspired to by God

If you're forced to ask for something, convicted to ask for something, or ask for something of your own volition, it doesn't matter. There's still no honour in it.If this is God's method, then He's chosen to remove honour from the situation. You can view this as a good thing (some think honour is only an excuse to boast). But that's still what it is. God could grant salvation to those He wants to, without convicting them to ask for forgiveness/salvation. There would then be honour in receiving the gift.God doesn't do this (according to you), He convicts us to ask for forgiveness/salvation. This certainly may be a good thing, but there is no honour in receiving this gift. Um... I picture-googled "stile" because that's what I chose for my screen-name. I wanted a picture to represent what the name meant. Just as if my name was Taz and I looked for a picture of the Tazmanian Devil cartoon.

What part of "you have received the gift before you've asked for it" do you not understand? I looked it up. It's a photo taken around the village of Chobham in England. Looks a little like it's been digitally filtered - which had me suppose it was a painting. Nice all the same.Interesting choice given your apparent current position. A stile being indeed a crossover point at the boundary of lands divided by stream, hedgerow or fence. I note too that your picture is taken from the viewpoint of a person emerging from a tunnel of darkness - heading towards the source of light which lies on the other side of the stile.Perhaps it was my 20/20 hindsight that drew me to your picture. A sense of deja vu.

I think we're kind of arguing two different things and it's getting confusing. Let's remember what we're talking about.To be honest with myself, I do not believe God exists.
To receive God's conviction, you think I need to believe He exists (at the minimum), no?
Am I doomed to go to Hell because I honestly use the gifts I have (given to me from God, if He exists) to conclude that God likely doesn't exist?
In order to go to Heaven, must I dishonour the gifts given to me and lie to myself?What we're talking about now seems to be getting more into God's honour in bestowing the gift of forgiveness/salvation. I don't really care about that. I'm sure God (being infinite) understands the concept of honour, and can deal with it however He wishes. What I'm talking about is the problem from my perspective, since I have the ability to change how I act. I stole the idea for the name from a character in a Piers Anthony novel I read many years ago. Again, showing off my honour I've used it as an internet handle for many years, even many years before I started considering any EvC type debates. I just like trees. Maybe. I like to think it's because it's a calming, comforting picture. That's why I chose it, anyway.

Okay. This is something that is easy to be honest about. Unless God manifested himself to you in such a way that left you in no doubt as to his existance then you would not, could not...indeed should not, believe in his existance. No. I didn't believe in God's existance until after I was convinced. I was convinced > then he evidenced himself > then I believed he existed (in the certain-belief sense of the word). That was the sequence. Indeed it had to be sequence otherwise I would have been locked in a Catch-22. I could never have been saved in that case. From the above it might be seen that this question is irrelevant. Your conviction doesn't rely on you having to first believe in God's existance. Like, there are plenty of people who do 'believe' in God's existance and they are not saved. Perhaps they never will be. Even the demons 'believe' in Gods existance Not at all. You need not do a thing. Okay. You may have to digest the points made above before we can look specifically at honour-and-you. There are some notions you seem to be labouring under which might be causing you to suppose dishonour where none exists.In the meantime, let me ask you a question. In war, is it honourable to admit defeat when you have been brought to your knees by your enemy. Assume that the fight was fair and could have gone either way - but that your enemy has managed to gain the upper hand and defeat you entirely. I'm sure that is the case. It just happens to drip Christian-threshold-theology. Which is, curiously enough, what we happen to be talking about. Edited by iano, : No reason given.

If a king is petitioned by his subjects to correct a problem, or grant a pardon, is he dishonorable in doing so because they already asked?I'm really confused as to whose honor you are discussing....And why you think mankind is honorable.

Okay, that sort of cleared up some things. Maybe I was confused from some of the other conversations as well. Let's try this, is this what you're saying?-I am honest with myself and I happen to not believe that God exists
-One day God may convict me to ask for forgiveness/salvation (if I think of it as "being thankful for the gift", is that okay?) and therefore receive that gift
-The "asking" isn't so much of one's own volition as it is an inevitable result of being convicted.Is this what you're saying? I agree that this is a fine scenario, and I don't really have a problem with it. But it doesn't address my question. I'm not concerned (in this thread) about the future where I honestly become convinced of God's existence (or get convicted). I am asking about the future where I honestly never become convinced of God's existence (or get convicted).To be clear, I am not worried that one day being honest with myself may lead me to believe in God. If that happens, then I certainly will believe. I am simply wondering that since this isn't the case currently, if I were to die right now, would I go to Hell because I did not become convicted? Or in other words, would I go to Hell because I was being honest with myself? In the case of "yes", I'm wondering why God would punish anyone for being honest. No, I would not consider this honourable. I would simply consider this the right thing to do at the moment. An honourable surrender to the enemy is one where you surrender before you are defeated entirely. The honourable surrender saves as many of your own soldier's lives as you can. Once you are "entirely defeated", you've past the point of saving some fighter's lives for the sake of surrendering. There is a point around "will lose many of our own people but will still win the war" where surrender is honourable, and it is definitely before "defeated entirely". Where there is no hope for winning, then there is no honour in surrendering, it's simply the right thing to do. Like I've been saying before, just because something is good and right doesn't mean it's honourable. If you wait until you're entirely defeated, you've past the point of an honourable surrender.

The king? No. I'm discussing (or trying to, anyway) mine. In your example, "me" would be the subjects. And no, there's no honour in being granted a pardon that you've petitioned for.
I'm sure God (the King) is capable of dealing with His own honour-issues. I don't really care what other people are, or do.
I think honour is an important virtue, and therefore I try to be honourable when it makes sense. Mostly I'm worried about honesty, which is really what the thread's about, it's just that honour get's more attention (and is closely related to honesty anyway) and I'm using underhanded tactics to add to the popularity of this thread

Hi Stile, In the matter of asking for or receiving the free pardon offered by God, are you sure you are not mistaking pride for honor?Pride would keep a man from comparing himself to God and exclaming as Isaiah did: "my best is as filthly rags in the eyes of God."Because when a man does that he realizes his condition doomed to the lake of fire.Now what is dishonorable is believing and receiving the free pardon.
I think it would be most honorable to ask.But Pride says No, No, No. He should give it to me because He knows I need it.God Bless,

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"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

Fair enough. The related question we will look at in a minute is whether you arrived at and maintain this status honestly. No. Receipt of the gift occurs the moment you arrive at the point of no return. That point is conviction by God. You don't have to do a thing to get yourself to that point; not ask, not hope, not perspire.Subsequent events, such as asking for (and receiving) forgiveness, God demonstrating his existance to you (so that you can honestly say you do believe he exists), feeling thankful and expressing it.. are all post-receipt of the gift. They are the contents of the box you are unpacking. I asked for (and received) God's forgiveness about 6 months after I was saved... for instance. It took me that long to unpack that element. On the other hand, God demonstrated his existance in the days (iirc) after I was saved. There is no strict formula for the manner of the gifts delivery, the contents of the box or the manner in which it is unpacked.(It wasn't the need for God's forgiveness that I was convicted of b.t.w. It was total conviction that the only person who could possibly get me out of the trouble I was in would be God - if he existed. So I asked him whose existance I didn't have any reason to believe in to step into my life.) Simply put. Yes. Regarding asking forgiveness from the mother of the child you killed whilst DUI. You could say you're asking of your own volition. And could also say that you are compelled by the force of regret and conviction as to your wrongdoing. 6 of one, half a dozen of the other? Happily or unhappily (depending on your final destination), that's not possible You can use your last breath to testify honestly that you were never convinced of God's existance. But you can't arrive at that point honestly. The only way to arrive at that point is by preventing God convincing you. And the way you manage to do that is by suppressing the truth that God reveals to you. Truths issued by God all your life through which would have surely built up and convinced you, Stile, to your knees. Were it not for your suppressing them and denying them.Suppression of God's truth is not an honest thing to do. Such suppression is the illegitimate and dishonourable avoidance of something God is legitimately entitled to reveal to you. Nor is it a smart thing to do. He will reveal this truth to you one way or the other. It's just that on this side of the grave it works towards your salvation. The same truth on the other side of the grave, when it is too late, merely condemns you. There is only one soldier on your side in this war - you. You were fighting for your very life and the possibility of winning remained open until the point where you were brought to your knees. You are now on your knees and your enemy offers terms: unconditional surrender or die.Which is honourable? To admit defeat or no? Edited by iano, : No reason given.Edited by iano, : No reason given.Edited by iano, : No reason given.Edited by iano, : No reason given.

I don't think honor, in the way you're discussing it, has anything to do with honesty.Also, a person in need of a pardon has much bigger things to worry about than honor.Edited by Creationista, : No reason given.

Yes, it is a fine line between pride and honour. It's a good thing what you say here isn't what I'm doing, or else it would definitely be pride.Parents have one cookie for dessert. Two kids want it. One pleads and begs for it, the other steps back and lets the decision be made by the parents. Regardless of what happens... if the cookie is split, whoever gets it, it doesn't matter. The one how asked has no honour, the one who didn't ask does.This is my situation. Yes, I need to be very careful not to fall into the pride trap, that's why it's also dishonourable to "expect" anything or try to earn it. That would be pride.It's still only honourable to receive a gift if you didn't ask for it.

So, reading between the lines... you're saying that God will convict everyone before they die, no exceptions, right? Is that true?Then I have nothing to worry about, I will just keep being honest with the information available. I agree. I certainly agree that it's very dishonourable to not be honest. And suppression of any truth (regardless if it's from God or not) is dishonourable. I'd never try to do this.I will just continue to be honest with the information available, then. It seems like you're saying that's what we should be doing. I agree, and think this is honourable as well. There is no honourable option available anymore. The smart thing to do would be to admit defeat, but it's no longer honourable. When all hope is gone, and all chances of winning are gone, so is any honourable surrender. Surrendering when you are completely defeated is not honourable, it's simply good management."the chance of winning remained until you are on your knees... you are now on your knees, defeated..." The point of honourable surrender has past.You don't lose any honour, it's not dishonourable, but it's not honourable either.How does this analogy correlate to what we're talking about anyway? I'm not in a battle I'm trying to win against God. I'm just trying to be honest with the information available to me. As soon as there's any information I can honestly evaluate about the existence of God in any way, I will look at it in earnest. I do not have anything standing in the way, or blocking the path. I'm simply honestly living life, and at this point right now, it honestly looks like the Christian God doesn't exist (to me, anyway).

Honour has everything to do with honesty. Without honesty, you can't have honour, any kind. And I explained what I'm talking about in the first sentence of the first post of this thread:

quote:

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By honour, I mean "that which tries to help those less-fortunate and looks for nothing in return".

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And I'm stressing the "looks for nothing in return" part. So not so much "helping those less fortunate", but anything good that "looks for nothing in return".How can you honestly look for nothing in return, if you're not honest? Honour hinges on being honest. No offense, but you saying I'm in need of a pardon does not make it so. My honest evalutation of this scenario says you're trying to lay a guilt trip on me for some reason. That's not nice of you.And even if it was true, to me, no, honour would still be a bigger deal. I wouldn't ask for a pardon. I would either deserve it, or I wouldn't. What other people decide... things that are out of my control, isn't important. What matters is being honest and doing what we can with our abilities. How can you possibly do better then your best?