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Author Topic:   Before Big Bang God or Singularity
ICANT
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Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 83 of 405 (452479)
01-30-2008 1:42 PM
Reply to: Message 81 by Rahvin
01-30-2008 1:17 PM


Re: Singularity.
Hi Rahvin,
Rahvin writes:
If that's your only reason for introducing the Christian god into the equation, you may as well replace your god with the Flying Spaghetti Monster, Odin, Zeus, or a miniature giant space hamster. You're using the God of the Gaps, adding your god to any gap in current knowledge. It violates parsimony and is the method of a sloppy mind.
Glad you like my theology but not here OK.
Have fun,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 81 by Rahvin, posted 01-30-2008 1:17 PM Rahvin has not replied

ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 85 of 405 (452483)
01-30-2008 2:07 PM
Reply to: Message 82 by Son Goku
01-30-2008 1:24 PM


Re: Singularity.
Hi Son,
Son Goku writes:
It can't predict anything previous to that point. Of course it makes predictions in general, today and in the past. It is only near the Big Bang and inside black holes that it breaks down.
Does it breakdown after T=0?
At T=0?
Before T=0?
My understanding is it breaks down at T=0 and therefore can not declare anything prior to T=0. Correct me if that is wrong.
Son this is not my aim: "Atheistic science versus Christianity"
This is my aim: "It's a question about the physics of a region of the universe we currently know nothing about and need a new theory to describe."
I think I proved with my OP that a new theory is needed.
Is the Super string theory it. Maybe, maybe not.
Hawking's unbounded universe. Maybe, maybe not.
I like the imaginary time in this one.
Is God the answer. Maybe, maybe not.
But I can still believe in my God without fear of Him being blown out of the heavens by the Big Bang.
But in reality every thing beyond T=O will be believed by Faith as we have an absence of anything to base anything on.
Although I still have the Bible to inspire my Faith.
Have fun,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 82 by Son Goku, posted 01-30-2008 1:24 PM Son Goku has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 86 by Son Goku, posted 01-30-2008 2:20 PM ICANT has replied

ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 87 of 405 (452494)
01-30-2008 2:55 PM
Reply to: Message 86 by Son Goku
01-30-2008 2:20 PM


Re: Singularity.
Hi Son,
Son Goku writes:
I don't like calling the Big Bang "T=0", but going on that wording it breaksdown between T = 0 and T = A very small amount of time.
So that is after. Therefore it cannot declare anything at or before.
Thus anything from T=A and before has to be taken by Faith.
Son Goku writes:
It is not a reasonable response to:
"What is the physical theory that treats the new degrees of freedom present at the Big Bang and inside black holes?"
Why? Are you saying God is not capable of creating the universe?
Have fun,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 86 by Son Goku, posted 01-30-2008 2:20 PM Son Goku has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 88 by Chiroptera, posted 01-30-2008 2:58 PM ICANT has not replied
 Message 89 by PMOC, posted 01-30-2008 3:12 PM ICANT has not replied
 Message 90 by molbiogirl, posted 01-30-2008 3:14 PM ICANT has not replied
 Message 96 by Son Goku, posted 01-31-2008 7:33 AM ICANT has replied

ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 91 of 405 (452667)
01-30-2008 11:54 PM


Re-Summation
Thanks to all who participated.
A special thanks to cavediver and Son Goku.
Message 1
In this topic I would like to discuss which is the best explanation for the origin of the universe. God or the Singularity including the Big Bang.
Message 56
ICANT writes:
The only way put forth for the singularity to exist says it can not exist.
cavediver writes:
Nonsense, the singularity is at T=0.
Message 59
ICANT writes:
Then what process produced this singularity at T=O?
cavediver writes:
As Hawking said, the positive curvature of the space-time.
Message 62
ICANT writes:
So are you saying there was space-time before the Big Bang?
cavediver writes:
No, of course not...
It is impossible according to what you say in the above quotes for us to be having this conversation.
Message 66
cavediver writes:
What? Based on your phenomenal understanding of physics? Well, I guess I must concede the point
Message 67
ICANT writes:
I think what we have discussed does prove what many even Hawking was putting forth in his unbounded theory is that we need something better than the Big Bang Theory as now accepted and taught to explain the orgin of the universe.
Message 74
Son Goku writes:
Keeping the interpretation given above, this means that in these places General Relativity breaks down and "space time curvature" or "spacetime" breaks down as a sensible concept and/or new physics emerges.
We need a new theory, almost certainly a quantum one, to account for this. It is provisionally named Quantum Gravity.
Message 82
Son Goku writes:
It's a question about the physics of a region of the universe we currently know nothing about and need a new theory to describe.
My original question:
Message 1
In this topic I would like to discuss which is the best explanation for the origin of the universe. God or the Singularity including the Big Bang.
Premise 1: Singularity including the Big Bang is the best explanation for the orgin of the universe. Falasified
Premise 2: God is the best explanation for the orgin of the universe.
Maybe, Maybe not but not falsified.
cavediver says we need a new theory.
Son Goku says we need a new theory.
With both agreeing we need a theory I hope molbiogirl is correct when she says:
quote:
Scientists do not give up when a theory has (possibly) fatal flaws.
I rest my case.
Now have fun it is only a debate.
Edited by ICANT, : No reason given.

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

Replies to this message:
 Message 95 by cavediver, posted 01-31-2008 6:12 AM ICANT has replied

ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 99 of 405 (452875)
01-31-2008 3:48 PM
Reply to: Message 96 by Son Goku
01-31-2008 7:33 AM


Re: Orgin
Hi Son,
Son Goku writes:
"singularity" isn't supposed to be an origin for the universe.
Son, did the Big Bang spawn out of a singularity?
Have fun,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 96 by Son Goku, posted 01-31-2008 7:33 AM Son Goku has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 100 by IamJoseph, posted 01-31-2008 6:37 PM ICANT has not replied
 Message 186 by Son Goku, posted 02-01-2008 5:59 PM ICANT has replied

ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 104 of 405 (452941)
01-31-2008 8:49 PM
Reply to: Message 101 by Hyroglyphx
01-31-2008 6:44 PM


Re: ... In the beginning
Hi Nem, glad to see you are still alive.
If one cannot go beyond the North Pole, it doesn't negate what North means
You know I been thinking about this North Pole thing quite a bit because it keeps coming up.
The thought occured to me when I saw a sub stick it's nose through the ice.
What if we had a sub over the North Pole and He launched a rocket straignt up what direction would it be heading. Would it be in the general direction of the North Star.
Just a thought.
Have fun,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 101 by Hyroglyphx, posted 01-31-2008 6:44 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 106 by cavediver, posted 01-31-2008 9:00 PM ICANT has replied
 Message 107 by Rahvin, posted 01-31-2008 9:09 PM ICANT has replied

ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 108 of 405 (452951)
01-31-2008 9:10 PM
Reply to: Message 102 by cavediver
01-31-2008 7:43 PM


Re: ... In the beginning
Hi cavediver,
cavediver writes:
Yes, it definietly does. That is the point of the analogy. At T=0 in classical big bang, or in no-boundary, there is no concept of before. But as I asked earlier, if you are looking for a cause, why does it have to be in the past?
Why not just say just because.
Now lets examine that.
It can't be in the future. No definately not.
If it is in the present being the moment of T=0+
There is no way the singularity could spawn the universe unless it did it out of the absence of anything.
Because there had been no condition to be able to cause the singularity to come into being.
There was no space=time.
There was no gravity.
There was no black holes.
I got 2 choices.
It spawned from an absence of anything.
It spawned from something that was in existence before T=0.
I choose the latter it make's more sense.
Have fun,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 102 by cavediver, posted 01-31-2008 7:43 PM cavediver has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 117 by cavediver, posted 02-01-2008 8:04 AM ICANT has replied

ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 109 of 405 (452953)
01-31-2008 9:20 PM
Reply to: Message 107 by Rahvin
01-31-2008 9:09 PM


Re: ... North Pole
Hi Rahvin,
Oh for crying out loud! It's an analogy, ICANT!
And aside from that, the rocket would be heading "up." Not North. The North Star is called the North Star because it happens to be aligned with our North pole, but the star itself doesn't designate the direction.
OK I still been thinking.
How about if a rocket took off from Cape Kenedy heading north flying at about 20,000 feet When it reached the North Pole still heading North out into space where would it be heading?
I know one thing it would leave a lot of busted glass in its path.
Just a thought.

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 107 by Rahvin, posted 01-31-2008 9:09 PM Rahvin has not replied

ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 110 of 405 (452955)
01-31-2008 9:24 PM
Reply to: Message 106 by cavediver
01-31-2008 9:00 PM


Re: ... In the beginning
Hi cavediver,
Yes it would... wow, I forgot that North is straight-up
I thought you would get a kick out of that I actually got that from Hawking's imaginary time.
Have fun,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 106 by cavediver, posted 01-31-2008 9:00 PM cavediver has not replied

ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 111 of 405 (452964)
01-31-2008 9:45 PM
Reply to: Message 95 by cavediver
01-31-2008 6:12 AM


Re-Summation
Hi cavediver I missed this one.
cavediver writes:
No, it is not impossible. Why do you claim this?
How could we exist? There would be no universe.
Msg=56
ICANT writes:
The only way put forth for the singularity to exist says it can not exist.
cavediver writes:
Nonsense, the singularity is at T=0.
Message 59
ICANT writes:
Then what process produced this singularity at T=O?
cavediver writes:
As Hawking said, the positive curvature of the space-time.
Message 62
ICANT writes:
So are you saying there was space-time before the Big Bang?
cavediver writes:
No, of course not...
You said "singularity cause by the positive curvature of the space-time."
You said there was no space-time before Big Bang = T=0+.
No spacetime = no positive curvature of the space-time = no singularity = no Big Bang.
So if you are correct in what you said we can't be here.
Unless you got a better explanation.
I got one but you won't accept it.
Have fun,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 95 by cavediver, posted 01-31-2008 6:12 AM cavediver has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 113 by Modulous, posted 01-31-2008 10:11 PM ICANT has replied
 Message 118 by cavediver, posted 02-01-2008 8:12 AM ICANT has replied
 Message 119 by Rahvin, posted 02-01-2008 10:22 AM ICANT has replied

ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 114 of 405 (452970)
01-31-2008 10:26 PM
Reply to: Message 112 by Hill Billy
01-31-2008 10:07 PM


Re: Re-Hard time wraping small head around this
Hi Hill Billy,
Hill Billy writes:
As I said, I wanna understand.
You having a hard time. Man I just walked out into the yard and looked up there is so much stuff up there. I came back in and set down and started trying to figure out how you could get Jupiter which is 9 times the size of the earth into something as small as a point. Then what would I do with all that other stuff?
Hill Billy writes:
I'm sorry, but I'm kinda stuck here.
The universe always was but it used to be smaller?
Is this true?
But to answer your question yes.
Isai. 45:12 (KJV) I have made the earth, and created man upon it: I, even my hands, have stretched out the heavens, and all their host have I commanded.
See I told you it was smaller but is now larger. I Know I got it from a reliable source.

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 112 by Hill Billy, posted 01-31-2008 10:07 PM Hill Billy has not replied

ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 115 of 405 (452973)
01-31-2008 10:34 PM
Reply to: Message 113 by Modulous
01-31-2008 10:11 PM


Re:Space-time
Hi Mod,
modulous writes:
Spacetime is a four dimensional entity. At some coordinates in that entity there exists postitive curvature of spacetime. One such coordinate is at T=0.
Are you saying there was space-time and at some coordiance in that spacetime is where the postitive curvature of space-time created the singularity that spawned the universe?
Very interesting,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 113 by Modulous, posted 01-31-2008 10:11 PM Modulous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 116 by Modulous, posted 02-01-2008 7:39 AM ICANT has replied

ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 120 of 405 (453056)
02-01-2008 10:31 AM
Reply to: Message 116 by Modulous
02-01-2008 7:39 AM


Re: Re:Space-time
Hi Mod,
Modulous writes:
No, I'm saying the big bang is not about spawning the universe.
Then at the Big Bang. Time, space, and all matter did not come into existence.
Modulous writes:
The big bang is just part of the universe just like any other part of the universe we might give a name.
Like the Andromeda Galaxy, Sunflower Galaxy, or our milky way galaxy.
Then what was the function of the Big Bang?
Modulous writes:
The universe doesn't 'come into existence' at the big bang.
OK. When did it come into existence if it is only 13 billion to 20 billion years old?
Modulous writes:
The universe exists - past, present and future as one four dimensional entity.
This is supposed to be my line.
I believe Genesis 1:1. In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. Since God had no beginning the universe had to always be here in some form. I have so stated many times on this forum.
Have fun now,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 116 by Modulous, posted 02-01-2008 7:39 AM Modulous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 121 by Rahvin, posted 02-01-2008 10:42 AM ICANT has not replied
 Message 123 by Modulous, posted 02-01-2008 10:50 AM ICANT has replied

ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 122 of 405 (453061)
02-01-2008 10:47 AM
Reply to: Message 117 by cavediver
02-01-2008 8:04 AM


Re: ... In the beginning
Hi cavediver,
cavediver writes:
Really? BTW, it is 'definitely' - think of it as de-finite, you won't go wrong again...
Thanks for the spelling correction.
cavediver writes:
I wish I'd known you were such an expert on space-time physics. Why can it not be in the future?
Then we don't exist and this exchange never took place yet.
Now are you are talking about it happening in the future again?
According to the Bible this universe will melt with fervent heat and there will be a new heaven and earth.
2Pet 3:10 (KJV) But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
Looks like it 'definitely' will happen again.
Have fun now,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 117 by cavediver, posted 02-01-2008 8:04 AM cavediver has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 125 by cavediver, posted 02-01-2008 10:54 AM ICANT has not replied

ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 124 of 405 (453063)
02-01-2008 10:53 AM
Reply to: Message 118 by cavediver
02-01-2008 8:12 AM


Re: Re-Summation
Hi cavediver,
cavediver writes:
Of course there is space-time. The singularity is surrounded by it. The singularity is a feature of that space-time, and arises because of the nature of that space-time. Simple...
Then if it is that simple you should not have any problem informing me of:
Where that space-time came from?
Who or what created it?
Have fun now,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 118 by cavediver, posted 02-01-2008 8:12 AM cavediver has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 126 by cavediver, posted 02-01-2008 10:57 AM ICANT has replied
 Message 127 by Rahvin, posted 02-01-2008 11:00 AM ICANT has replied

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