Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
3 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,815 Year: 3,072/9,624 Month: 917/1,588 Week: 100/223 Day: 11/17 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Before Big Bang God or Singularity
Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4032
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 9.2


Message 121 of 405 (453058)
02-01-2008 10:42 AM
Reply to: Message 120 by ICANT
02-01-2008 10:31 AM


Re: Re:Space-time
OK. When did it come into existence if it is only 13 billion to 20 billion years old?
Your concept of time may be the problem.
In the number set (5-20), what comes before 5? The question doesn't make sense.
We experience time in a linear fashion because the chemical and electric reactions that produce our consciousness function only in the direction of increasing entropy - ie, in a single direction in time. But time is just another dimension of the Universe, like width, or height, or length. It's had for us to understand, because our perception of time is like only being able to walk forward without turning or stopping. In your case, you're trying to ask what your footsteps look like farther back than when you began walking.
If you ask what in this room is higher than the ceiling, the question doesn't make sense. Likewise, asking what came before time when the word "before" requires the dimension of time to exist doesn't make sense either. You're asking what's further than "left."
Cavediver, please feel free to correct my innumerable analogies.

When you know you're going to wake up in three days, dying is not a sacrifice. It's a painful inconvenience.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 120 by ICANT, posted 02-01-2008 10:31 AM ICANT has not replied

ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 122 of 405 (453061)
02-01-2008 10:47 AM
Reply to: Message 117 by cavediver
02-01-2008 8:04 AM


Re: ... In the beginning
Hi cavediver,
cavediver writes:
Really? BTW, it is 'definitely' - think of it as de-finite, you won't go wrong again...
Thanks for the spelling correction.
cavediver writes:
I wish I'd known you were such an expert on space-time physics. Why can it not be in the future?
Then we don't exist and this exchange never took place yet.
Now are you are talking about it happening in the future again?
According to the Bible this universe will melt with fervent heat and there will be a new heaven and earth.
2Pet 3:10 (KJV) But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
Looks like it 'definitely' will happen again.
Have fun now,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 117 by cavediver, posted 02-01-2008 8:04 AM cavediver has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 125 by cavediver, posted 02-01-2008 10:54 AM ICANT has not replied

Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 123 of 405 (453062)
02-01-2008 10:50 AM
Reply to: Message 120 by ICANT
02-01-2008 10:31 AM


Space-time
Then at the Big Bang. Time, space, and all matter did not come into existence.
Exactly - this is the case with the model as it stands. Other models may argue along different lines but they still don't explain the origin of all reality. That is, if an event occurred which 'caused' the universe to appear - then they still don't attempt to explain the origins of the 'metaverse' in which our universe is a resident.
Like the Andromeda Galaxy, Sunflower Galaxy, or our milky way galaxy.
Then what was the function of the Big Bang?
It doesn't serve any 'function', it just is.
OK. When did it come into existence if it is only 13 billion to 20 billion years old?
The question makes no sense. There is no 'when' it came into existence - there is no time outside of the universe by which to judge 'when' it happened. It exists and we exist within it at a certain coordinate within that which is billions of years from time=0.
This is supposed to be my line.
No, your view is that time stretches into infinity in both directions. The view I explained can have the time dimension with a finite 'length'.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 120 by ICANT, posted 02-01-2008 10:31 AM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 133 by ICANT, posted 02-01-2008 11:27 AM Modulous has replied

ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 124 of 405 (453063)
02-01-2008 10:53 AM
Reply to: Message 118 by cavediver
02-01-2008 8:12 AM


Re: Re-Summation
Hi cavediver,
cavediver writes:
Of course there is space-time. The singularity is surrounded by it. The singularity is a feature of that space-time, and arises because of the nature of that space-time. Simple...
Then if it is that simple you should not have any problem informing me of:
Where that space-time came from?
Who or what created it?
Have fun now,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 118 by cavediver, posted 02-01-2008 8:12 AM cavediver has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 126 by cavediver, posted 02-01-2008 10:57 AM ICANT has replied
 Message 127 by Rahvin, posted 02-01-2008 11:00 AM ICANT has replied

cavediver
Member (Idle past 3643 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


Message 125 of 405 (453065)
02-01-2008 10:54 AM
Reply to: Message 122 by ICANT
02-01-2008 10:47 AM


Re: ... In the beginning
Thanks for the spelling correction.
It's an old error of mine, so I always notice it
Then we don't exist and this exchange never took place yet.
You keep saying this and I have no idea why.
Now are you are talking about it happening in the future again?
Yes, so what? We are talking about theories of space-time and existence here. You don't expect it to be obvious, common sense, and easy to understand did you?
According to the Bible this universe
I really don't trust the Bible as a cosmology textbook, but even so, how does this negate what I am saying?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 122 by ICANT, posted 02-01-2008 10:47 AM ICANT has not replied

cavediver
Member (Idle past 3643 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


Message 126 of 405 (453066)
02-01-2008 10:57 AM
Reply to: Message 124 by ICANT
02-01-2008 10:53 AM


Re: Re-Summation
Where that space-time came from?
I'm not sure what this means - all possible 'froms' are contained within the space-time.
Who or what created it?
Why should it need creating? Why can it not just be?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 124 by ICANT, posted 02-01-2008 10:53 AM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 128 by tesla, posted 02-01-2008 11:03 AM cavediver has not replied
 Message 134 by ICANT, posted 02-01-2008 11:30 AM cavediver has not replied

Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4032
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 9.2


Message 127 of 405 (453068)
02-01-2008 11:00 AM
Reply to: Message 124 by ICANT
02-01-2008 10:53 AM


Re: Re-Summation
Then if it is that simple you should not have any problem informing me of:
Where that space-time came from?
Who or what created it?
Why does it have to "come from" anything at all?
Why does it need to be "created?"
We know that the Universe does exist. We have a pretty good idea of many of its properties (by no means a complete understanding). The idea that it needed to be "created" or at some point did not exist is an assumption on your part (and the latter doesn't even make sense - the Universe has existed at every single point in time, because the Universe includes time).

When you know you're going to wake up in three days, dying is not a sacrifice. It's a painful inconvenience.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 124 by ICANT, posted 02-01-2008 10:53 AM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 132 by ICANT, posted 02-01-2008 11:27 AM Rahvin has not replied
 Message 141 by ICANT, posted 02-01-2008 11:59 AM Rahvin has replied

tesla
Member (Idle past 1593 days)
Posts: 1199
Joined: 12-22-2007


Message 128 of 405 (453070)
02-01-2008 11:03 AM
Reply to: Message 126 by cavediver
02-01-2008 10:57 AM


Re: Re-Summation
Why should it need creating? Why can it not just be?
good question. and if we are alive in this universe, its one we should ask.
something cannot "literally" come form nothing.
so by science, explore what the something was. and to know if it came from intelligence, or from random force, we need to observe what the start can potentially be, or not be.
a single timeless energy that just was, and evolved points to intelligence on every level. and a single intelligent energy that evolved would then be "creation". a single intelligent energy that creates based on only itself is an act of faith.

keep your mind from this way of enquiry, for never will you show that not-being is
~parmenides

This message is a reply to:
 Message 126 by cavediver, posted 02-01-2008 10:57 AM cavediver has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 129 by Rahvin, posted 02-01-2008 11:10 AM tesla has replied

Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4032
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 9.2


Message 129 of 405 (453072)
02-01-2008 11:10 AM
Reply to: Message 128 by tesla
02-01-2008 11:03 AM


Re: Re-Summation
something cannot "literally" come form nothing.
You're assuming there ever was "nothing." Modern physics says nothing of the sort. As has been stated repeatedly in this thread, the Big Bang has nothing to do with creation ex nihilo. The Universe did not come into existence from nothing, or by chance. It simply followed out the extrapolation of its natural properties in the direction of increasing entropy (in other words, it is expanding in one direction of time, which we experience linearly but is simply another dimension like width).

When you know you're going to wake up in three days, dying is not a sacrifice. It's a painful inconvenience.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 128 by tesla, posted 02-01-2008 11:03 AM tesla has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 130 by tesla, posted 02-01-2008 11:15 AM Rahvin has not replied

tesla
Member (Idle past 1593 days)
Posts: 1199
Joined: 12-22-2007


Message 130 of 405 (453073)
02-01-2008 11:15 AM
Reply to: Message 129 by Rahvin
02-01-2008 11:10 AM


Re: Re-Summation
You're assuming there ever was "nothing"
wrong. im saying at no time was there ever a point that there was "nothing" because if that is even considered you invite to possibility you do not exist. thats mental illness.
dig deeper. even if there is a greater heaven beyond our universe in another "plane" of existence, then there was still another "before that".
and if you follow "before that" you find T=0
regardless of the spaces in between.
its science.

keep your mind from this way of enquiry, for never will you show that not-being is
~parmenides

This message is a reply to:
 Message 129 by Rahvin, posted 02-01-2008 11:10 AM Rahvin has not replied

ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 131 of 405 (453074)
02-01-2008 11:17 AM
Reply to: Message 119 by Rahvin
02-01-2008 10:22 AM


Re: Re-Summation
Hi Rahvin,
Rahvin writes:
ICANT, time is part of space-time.
Yes and according to the Big Bang Theory time came into existence at T=0 or T=0+, space, matter and everything that what you can see came from.
I build things.
I have to have materials.
They have to come from somewhere.
Somebody has to manufacture the plywood, roofing materials, block, etc.
These materials have to be made from something.
That something has to come from somewhere. Trees, oil products, or materials in the ground.
That material had to come from somewhere. I am told that it came from the singularity.
OK where did the singularity come from? The singularity came from a point in space-time caused by the positive curvature of that space-time.
Then I am told that space and time was created in the Big Bang.
OK where did the Big Bang come from? The singularity.
But wait a minute the singularity had to come from the Big Bang as there was no space and time matter or anything.
To me that looks like circular reasoning to me.
Like the question, Which came first the chicken or the egg?
Have fun,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 119 by Rahvin, posted 02-01-2008 10:22 AM Rahvin has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 135 by New Cat's Eye, posted 02-01-2008 11:33 AM ICANT has not replied
 Message 136 by Rahvin, posted 02-01-2008 11:35 AM ICANT has replied
 Message 138 by tesla, posted 02-01-2008 11:50 AM ICANT has replied

ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 132 of 405 (453079)
02-01-2008 11:27 AM
Reply to: Message 127 by Rahvin
02-01-2008 11:00 AM


Re-Summation
Hi Rahvin,
Rahvin writes:
Why does it need to be "created?"
Then it had to come from an absence of anything.
Simple
Have fun,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 127 by Rahvin, posted 02-01-2008 11:00 AM Rahvin has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 137 by New Cat's Eye, posted 02-01-2008 11:48 AM ICANT has replied

ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 133 of 405 (453080)
02-01-2008 11:27 AM
Reply to: Message 123 by Modulous
02-01-2008 10:50 AM


Re: Space-time
Hi Mod,
Modulous writes:
No, your view is that time stretches into infinity in both directions. The view I explained can have the time dimension with a finite 'length'.
If it has always been how can it end?
What will cause the end?
Have fun,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 123 by Modulous, posted 02-01-2008 10:50 AM Modulous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 144 by Modulous, posted 02-01-2008 12:11 PM ICANT has replied

ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 134 of 405 (453081)
02-01-2008 11:30 AM
Reply to: Message 126 by cavediver
02-01-2008 10:57 AM


Re-Summation
Hi cavediver,
cavediver writes:
Why should it need creating? Why can it not just be?
You lost me somewhere along the line.
Could you please give me your rendition of "The Big Bang Theory""?
Thanks,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 126 by cavediver, posted 02-01-2008 10:57 AM cavediver has not replied

New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 135 of 405 (453083)
02-01-2008 11:33 AM
Reply to: Message 131 by ICANT
02-01-2008 11:17 AM


Re: Re-Summation
Then I am told that space and time was created in the Big Bang.
The Big Bang didn't create spacetime. Spacetime was in existence, as the singularity, and then it started expanding. This expansion is referred to as the Big Bang.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 131 by ICANT, posted 02-01-2008 11:17 AM ICANT has not replied

Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024