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Author Topic:   Before Big Bang God or Singularity
Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4032
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 9.2


Message 136 of 405 (453085)
02-01-2008 11:35 AM
Reply to: Message 131 by ICANT
02-01-2008 11:17 AM


Re: Re-Summation
Yes and according to the Big Bang Theory time came into existence at T=0 or T=0+, space, matter and everything that what you can see came from.
No. As has been explained to you, T=0 is simply a point in time. The Big Bang does not say that anything at all came from nothing.
I build things.
I have to have materials.
They have to come from somewhere.
Somebody has to manufacture the plywood, roofing materials, block, etc.
These materials have to be made from something.
That something has to come from somewhere. Trees, oil products, or materials in the ground.
Your analogy has no basis in physics or Big Bang cosmology. There is not reason beyond your incredulity that the Universe needs an actual "beginning."
That material had to come from somewhere. I am told that it came from the singularity.
OK where did the singularity come from? The singularity came from a point in space-time caused by the positive curvature of that space-time.
Then I am told that space and time was created in the Big Bang.
OK where did the Big Bang come from? The singularity.
You were not told that space and time were created in the Big Bang. Go back and read what cavediver actually told you. The Singularity is a feature of the Universe at T=0, not the "cause" of anything.

When you know you're going to wake up in three days, dying is not a sacrifice. It's a painful inconvenience.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 131 by ICANT, posted 02-01-2008 11:17 AM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 155 by ICANT, posted 02-01-2008 1:01 PM Rahvin has replied

New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 137 of 405 (453087)
02-01-2008 11:48 AM
Reply to: Message 132 by ICANT
02-01-2008 11:27 AM


Re: Re-Summation
Rahvin writes:
Why does it need to be "created?"
Then it had to come from an absence of anything.
No, not necessarily. How many times do people have to tell you that you're wrong about something before you stop repeating it?
Here is an alternate theory to the Big Bang. In this theory, the universe was not created and it did not come from nothing.
Here is the animation of the energence.
So can you stop saying that those are the only two possibilities now?
I'm guessing not since it will get in the way of you beliefs

This message is a reply to:
 Message 132 by ICANT, posted 02-01-2008 11:27 AM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 139 by tesla, posted 02-01-2008 11:56 AM New Cat's Eye has replied
 Message 146 by ICANT, posted 02-01-2008 12:15 PM New Cat's Eye has not replied

tesla
Member (Idle past 1592 days)
Posts: 1199
Joined: 12-22-2007


Message 138 of 405 (453088)
02-01-2008 11:50 AM
Reply to: Message 131 by ICANT
02-01-2008 11:17 AM


Re: Re-Summation
Like the question, Which came first the chicken or the egg?
the true answer is the first chicken came with the first egg.

keep your mind from this way of enquiry, for never will you show that not-being is
~parmenides

This message is a reply to:
 Message 131 by ICANT, posted 02-01-2008 11:17 AM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 142 by ICANT, posted 02-01-2008 12:03 PM tesla has not replied

tesla
Member (Idle past 1592 days)
Posts: 1199
Joined: 12-22-2007


Message 139 of 405 (453091)
02-01-2008 11:56 AM
Reply to: Message 137 by New Cat's Eye
02-01-2008 11:48 AM


Re: Re-Summation
same problem with this theory that is with the big bang.
there was still a before that. the dimensions came from..what? existed..how?
inevitably, there is still T=0

keep your mind from this way of enquiry, for never will you show that not-being is
~parmenides

This message is a reply to:
 Message 137 by New Cat's Eye, posted 02-01-2008 11:48 AM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 140 by New Cat's Eye, posted 02-01-2008 11:58 AM tesla has replied

New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 140 of 405 (453094)
02-01-2008 11:58 AM
Reply to: Message 139 by tesla
02-01-2008 11:56 AM


Re: Re-Summation
there was still a before that. the dimensions came from..what? existed..how?
inevitably, there is still T=0
Not if they've existed forever....
The point is that our Universe could have came from somthing that was a non-universe and that it did have to come from the absence of anything.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 139 by tesla, posted 02-01-2008 11:56 AM tesla has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 143 by tesla, posted 02-01-2008 12:06 PM New Cat's Eye has not replied

ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 141 of 405 (453095)
02-01-2008 11:59 AM
Reply to: Message 127 by Rahvin
02-01-2008 11:00 AM


Re: Re-Summation
Hi Rahvin,
Rahvin writes:
Why does it have to "come from" anything at all?
Why does it need to be "created?"
Either:
It came from something.
It was created.
It always existed.
Are there any other choices?
Have fun,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 127 by Rahvin, posted 02-01-2008 11:00 AM Rahvin has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 145 by Rahvin, posted 02-01-2008 12:12 PM ICANT has replied

ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 142 of 405 (453097)
02-01-2008 12:03 PM
Reply to: Message 138 by tesla
02-01-2008 11:50 AM


Re: Re-Summation
Hi tesla,
tesla writes:
the true answer is the first chicken came with the first egg.
Correct answer you get an A+.
Have fun,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 138 by tesla, posted 02-01-2008 11:50 AM tesla has not replied

tesla
Member (Idle past 1592 days)
Posts: 1199
Joined: 12-22-2007


Message 143 of 405 (453099)
02-01-2008 12:06 PM
Reply to: Message 140 by New Cat's Eye
02-01-2008 11:58 AM


Re: Re-Summation
ok. so these dimensions existed singularly then.
because if one was before another then time is measured. since as long as two things are, time is relevant to the order by which was first.
so this theory is, as your suggesting, a singular energy with multiple dimensions?
order? chaos? intelligent? not intelligent?

keep your mind from this way of enquiry, for never will you show that not-being is
~parmenides

This message is a reply to:
 Message 140 by New Cat's Eye, posted 02-01-2008 11:58 AM New Cat's Eye has not replied

Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 144 of 405 (453102)
02-01-2008 12:11 PM
Reply to: Message 133 by ICANT
02-01-2008 11:27 AM


Re: Space-time
If it has always been how can it end?
It can't.
It hasn't 'always' been. You're still not thinking in 4 dimensions. You have to avoid using temporal words, or at least understand how they don't work.
The singularity is an integral part of a description of the universe in four dimensions.
What will cause the end?
The end of what? There is just a 4d object. It might have boundaries which you could call 'ends'. The 'cause' of those boundaries is also the 'cause' for the geometry of the rest of spacetime.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 133 by ICANT, posted 02-01-2008 11:27 AM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 150 by ICANT, posted 02-01-2008 12:34 PM Modulous has replied

Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4032
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 9.2


Message 145 of 405 (453104)
02-01-2008 12:12 PM
Reply to: Message 141 by ICANT
02-01-2008 11:59 AM


Re: Re-Summation
Either:
It came from something.
It was created.
It always existed.
Are there any other choices?
The Universe exists at every point on the timeline, because time is a dimension of the Universe. There is no time at which the Universe did not exist. By definition, the Universe has always existed.

When you know you're going to wake up in three days, dying is not a sacrifice. It's a painful inconvenience.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 141 by ICANT, posted 02-01-2008 11:59 AM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 147 by ICANT, posted 02-01-2008 12:21 PM Rahvin has not replied

ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 146 of 405 (453105)
02-01-2008 12:15 PM
Reply to: Message 137 by New Cat's Eye
02-01-2008 11:48 AM


Re: Re-Summation
Hi Scientist,
Catholic Scientest writes:
Here is the animation of the energence.
Nice. Could you explain where the dark gray membrane on the left came from?
If your answer is the 5th dimension then where did it come from?
Thanks,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 137 by New Cat's Eye, posted 02-01-2008 11:48 AM New Cat's Eye has not replied

ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 147 of 405 (453108)
02-01-2008 12:21 PM
Reply to: Message 145 by Rahvin
02-01-2008 12:12 PM


Re-Summation
Hi Rahvin,
Rahvin writes:
The Universe exists at every point on the timeline, because time is a dimension of the Universe. There is no time at which the Universe did not exist. By definition, the Universe has always existed.
If it has always existed and the Big Bang Theory is that it came into existence then the Big Bang Theory is False.
Thanks for agreeing with:
Premise 1: Singularity including the Big Bang is the best explanation for the orgin of the universe. Falasified
Message 91
Have fun now,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 145 by Rahvin, posted 02-01-2008 12:12 PM Rahvin has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 148 by cavediver, posted 02-01-2008 12:24 PM ICANT has replied
 Message 149 by New Cat's Eye, posted 02-01-2008 12:24 PM ICANT has not replied

cavediver
Member (Idle past 3643 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


Message 148 of 405 (453109)
02-01-2008 12:24 PM
Reply to: Message 147 by ICANT
02-01-2008 12:21 PM


Re: Re-Summation
If it has always existed and the Big Bang Theory is that it came into existence then the Big Bang Theory is False.
Although it is vaguely amusing watching you make such proclamations from a position of near complete ignorance, please justify this statement.
Why is the Big Bang false?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 147 by ICANT, posted 02-01-2008 12:21 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 152 by ICANT, posted 02-01-2008 12:42 PM cavediver has not replied

New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 149 of 405 (453110)
02-01-2008 12:24 PM
Reply to: Message 147 by ICANT
02-01-2008 12:21 PM


Re: Re-Summation
and the Big Bang Theory is that it came into existence
But its not.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 147 by ICANT, posted 02-01-2008 12:21 PM ICANT has not replied

ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 150 of 405 (453112)
02-01-2008 12:34 PM
Reply to: Message 144 by Modulous
02-01-2008 12:11 PM


Re: Space-time
Hi Mod,
Modulous writes:
It hasn't 'always' been. You're still not thinking in 4 dimensions. You have to avoid using temporal words, or at least understand how they don't work.
Here you say, "it has not always been."
Message 116
Modulous writes:
No, I'm saying the big bang is not about spawning the universe. The big bang is just part of the universe just like any other part of the universe we might give a name. The universe doesn't 'come into existence' at the big bang. The universe exists - past, present and future as one four dimensional entity.
Here you say:"The universe exists - past, present and future".
That is saying the universe has always been unless you want to qualify your statement to include a beginning.
I thought that is what the Big Bang Theory was to the static universe and gave the universe a beginning.
Have fun,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 144 by Modulous, posted 02-01-2008 12:11 PM Modulous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 151 by New Cat's Eye, posted 02-01-2008 12:42 PM ICANT has replied
 Message 157 by Modulous, posted 02-01-2008 1:31 PM ICANT has replied
 Message 159 by tesla, posted 02-01-2008 1:48 PM ICANT has replied

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