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Author Topic:   Before Big Bang God or Singularity
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 151 of 405 (453114)
02-01-2008 12:42 PM
Reply to: Message 150 by ICANT
02-01-2008 12:34 PM


Re: Space-time
I thought that is what the Big Bang Theory was to the static universe and gave the universe a beginning.
There you go thinking again....

This message is a reply to:
 Message 150 by ICANT, posted 02-01-2008 12:34 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 153 by ICANT, posted 02-01-2008 12:51 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 152 of 405 (453115)
02-01-2008 12:42 PM
Reply to: Message 148 by cavediver
02-01-2008 12:24 PM


Re-Summation
Hi cavediver,
ICANT writes:
If it has always existed and the Big Bang Theory is that it came into existence then the Big Bang Theory is False.
cavediver writes:
Why is the Big Bang false?
I called my buddy at the insane asylum and asked for his take on this.
He said if something always existed and something else said it came into existence 13 to 20 billion years ago one of them had to be false.
Therefore I conclude if it has always existed then the Big Bang Theory has to be false.
Have fun,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 148 by cavediver, posted 02-01-2008 12:24 PM cavediver has not replied

ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 153 of 405 (453118)
02-01-2008 12:51 PM
Reply to: Message 151 by New Cat's Eye
02-01-2008 12:42 PM


Re: Space-time
Hi Scientist,
Catholic Scientist writes:
There you go thinking again....
Yes that is a stupid thing to do wastes a lot of time.
Maybe I should just accept what everybody else says and not question anything. But cavediver said that was a stupid question if I don't ask it.
Static Theory is that the universe has always existed.
Big Bang Theory is that the universe definitely had a beginning.
So correct my thinking.
Have fun,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 151 by New Cat's Eye, posted 02-01-2008 12:42 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 154 by New Cat's Eye, posted 02-01-2008 12:57 PM ICANT has replied

New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 154 of 405 (453121)
02-01-2008 12:57 PM
Reply to: Message 153 by ICANT
02-01-2008 12:51 PM


Re: Space-time
So correct my thinking.
I think the best correction for your thinking is for it to stop.
Maybe I should just accept what everybody else says and not question anything.
Please do. It will save a lot of wasted time on you.
You're not going to budge. You're just going to repeat the same old nonsense that is required for you to maintain your beliefs.
Big Bang Theory is that the universe definitely had a beginning.
There is no point in time at which the Universe did not exist because time is a part of the Universe and does not exist without it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 153 by ICANT, posted 02-01-2008 12:51 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 156 by ICANT, posted 02-01-2008 1:05 PM New Cat's Eye has not replied

ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 155 of 405 (453122)
02-01-2008 1:01 PM
Reply to: Message 136 by Rahvin
02-01-2008 11:35 AM


Re-Summation
Hi Rahvin,
Rahvin writes:
No. As has been explained to you, T=0 is simply a point in time.
Yes you have pointed it out several times.
But Time did not exist for T=0 to exist in.
Time was created in the Big Bang.
Rahvin writes:
Your analogy has no basis in physics or Big Bang cosmology. There is not reason beyond your incredulity that the Universe needs an actual "beginning."
But The Big Bang Theory says it does have a beginning.
Are you saying the Theory is False?
Rahvin writes:
You were not told that space and time were created in the Big Bang. Go back and read what cavediver actually told you. The Singularity is a feature of the Universe at T=0, not the "cause" of anything.
I asked cavediver for his rendition of a definition for the Big Bang Theory I haven't seen it yet.
Have fun,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 136 by Rahvin, posted 02-01-2008 11:35 AM Rahvin has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 160 by Rahvin, posted 02-01-2008 1:54 PM ICANT has replied

ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 156 of 405 (453123)
02-01-2008 1:05 PM
Reply to: Message 154 by New Cat's Eye
02-01-2008 12:57 PM


Re: Space-time
Hi Scientest,
Catholic Scientist writes:
There is no point in time at which the Universe did not exist because time is a part of the Universe and does not exist without it.
I am getting drunk going around in that circle.
Have fun,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 154 by New Cat's Eye, posted 02-01-2008 12:57 PM New Cat's Eye has not replied

Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 157 of 405 (453126)
02-01-2008 1:31 PM
Reply to: Message 150 by ICANT
02-01-2008 12:34 PM


Here you say, "it has not always been."
What I said was: It hasn't 'always' been. The scare quotes had a meaning. They were implying that the word isn't really the right word to discuss the issue.
Here you say:"The universe exists - past, present and future".
That is saying the universe has always been unless you want to qualify your statement to include a beginning.
No it isn't. You are still suffering under a misunderstanding. A little humility might help you here. You are still thinking that time has to exist independent of the universe. That the universe is nested within a higher dimensional area with a metatime within it. That might be the case, but it isn't the Big Bang.
No, the universe simply exists. The whole thing - all four dimensions in their entirety. The whole of time, the whole of space, is described as a single entity. This 'spacetime' has some areas which contain a singularity.
There is no 'always existing' there is simply 'existing'. If there is no time dimension outside of the universe then it makes no sense to think of things in terms of
no universe -> singularity -> universe -> ?
Whenever time exists, the universe exists. One can view this as something 'always existing', but it is not eternal - which is what I think you mean by 'always existing'. It exists, and we can describe it. Some parts are weird. The lower the time coordinate, the hotter and denser the universe is. At some points the local mass density is so great it distorts space time and forms a singularity. T=0 is one such point.
Edited by Modulous, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 150 by ICANT, posted 02-01-2008 12:34 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 161 by ICANT, posted 02-01-2008 2:04 PM Modulous has replied

Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 158 of 405 (453130)
02-01-2008 1:39 PM
Reply to: Message 105 by cavediver
01-31-2008 8:58 PM


Re: ... In the beginning
Doesn't actually sound like I need to reply; you seem to have it all figured out.
Actually, that's what I seemed to have gotten back from you. I'm sure you are brilliant in your own right, but thus far you seem to condescend to people without giving explanations.
If there is no actual singularity, then there was no beginning. If there was no beginning, then why doesn't observation confirm that?
Doesn't actually sound like I need to reply; you seem to have it all figured out. In how many other ultra-technical frontier sciences are you an expert, or have you just specialised in this one?
No one needs be an expert with the givens. These are givens. If they are not, then an explanation as to why not would be helpful -- far more so than condescending to people.

“There is something which unites magic and applied science while separating both from the 'wisdom' of earlier ages. For the wise men of old the cardinal problem had been how to conform the soul to objective reality, and the solution had been knowledge, self-discipline, and virtue. For magic and applied science alike the problem is how to subdue reality to the wishes of men: the solution is a technique; and both, in the practice of this technique, are ready to do things hitherto regarded as disgusting and impious" -C.S. Lewis

This message is a reply to:
 Message 105 by cavediver, posted 01-31-2008 8:58 PM cavediver has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 170 by cavediver, posted 02-01-2008 3:22 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

tesla
Member (Idle past 1593 days)
Posts: 1199
Joined: 12-22-2007


Message 159 of 405 (453132)
02-01-2008 1:48 PM
Reply to: Message 150 by ICANT
02-01-2008 12:34 PM


Re: Space-time
why do you end your statements with "have fun"?
it can be inflammatory, not that it is your intention, but its apparently condescending given the nature of the conversation.
i have come to know you as a believer in Jesus, and Jesus would want you to love all men, good or bad, and to put others before you. to be condescending is not humility. (off topic, but you can always click my name and send me an e-mail if we could pursue this)
back on topic: the "always was" has evolved. so what did the "always was" look like in its Genesis state?
this theory of dimensions still applies to singular energy in its initial state, that encompasses multiple planes of reality in a timeless state (t=0) which still is saying singularity, but showing a greater complexity.
the question still must be asked , if this energy of many dimensions that "always was" existed singularly, in great complexity, was it :
ordered? chaotic? intelligent? or not intelligent?

keep your mind from this way of enquiry, for never will you show that not-being is
~parmenides

This message is a reply to:
 Message 150 by ICANT, posted 02-01-2008 12:34 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 163 by ICANT, posted 02-01-2008 2:13 PM tesla has replied

Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4032
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 9.2


Message 160 of 405 (453133)
02-01-2008 1:54 PM
Reply to: Message 155 by ICANT
02-01-2008 1:01 PM


Re: Re-Summation
Hi Rahvin,
quote:
Rahvin writes:
No. As has been explained to you, T=0 is simply a point in time.
Yes you have pointed it out several times.
But Time did not exist for T=0 to exist in.
Time was created in the Big Bang.
NO IT WAS NOT! You've been told this over and over again in this thread. Stop listening to what the Discovery Channel and Popular Science tell you in their watered-down versions made so even kids can understand, and start listening to Cavediver, who knows the actual claims of the Big Bang model and physics!
quote:
Rahvin writes:
Your analogy has no basis in physics or Big Bang cosmology. There is not reason beyond your incredulity that the Universe needs an actual "beginning."
But The Big Bang Theory says it does have a beginning.
Are you saying the Theory is False?
No! Again, you're using a strawman version of Big Bang cosmology, gathered from your understanding based on layman's explanations for the Big Bang. News flash: The Discovery Channel and other "sciency" channels have programs that are extremely simplified to the point of being fairly inaccurate, because the average person doesn't have a prayer of comprehending the complex math and theory that goes into the Big Bang model. Your comprehension is flawed.
The Big Bang was not the "beginning" of the Universe as you're stating. Nothing was "created in the Big Bang. The Bang is what we call the expansion of the Universe from the Singularity to what we see today - not a scientific verification of your "creation ex nihilo" fantasies.
quote:
Rahvin writes:
You were not told that space and time were created in the Big Bang. Go back and read what cavediver actually told you. The Singularity is a feature of the Universe at T=0, not the "cause" of anything.
I asked cavediver for his rendition of a definition for the Big Bang Theory I haven't seen it yet.
Have fun,
If and when cavediver provides a definition of the actual Big Bang model, I somehow doubt you'll comprehend it. As it stands, you haven't been able to wrap your head around fully 80% of the posts in this thread, as you continue to make claims regarding the Big Bang and the Singularity that you have been told are false.

When you know you're going to wake up in three days, dying is not a sacrifice. It's a painful inconvenience.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 155 by ICANT, posted 02-01-2008 1:01 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 168 by ICANT, posted 02-01-2008 2:35 PM Rahvin has not replied

ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 161 of 405 (453137)
02-01-2008 2:04 PM
Reply to: Message 157 by Modulous
02-01-2008 1:31 PM


Re=T=0
Hi Mod,
Modulous writes:
At some points the local mass density is so great it distorts space time and forms a singularity. T=0 is one such point.
OK at this point, where did it come from?
Have fun,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 157 by Modulous, posted 02-01-2008 1:31 PM Modulous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 162 by tesla, posted 02-01-2008 2:09 PM ICANT has replied
 Message 165 by New Cat's Eye, posted 02-01-2008 2:17 PM ICANT has not replied
 Message 166 by Modulous, posted 02-01-2008 2:17 PM ICANT has replied

tesla
Member (Idle past 1593 days)
Posts: 1199
Joined: 12-22-2007


Message 162 of 405 (453139)
02-01-2008 2:09 PM
Reply to: Message 161 by ICANT
02-01-2008 2:04 PM


Re: Re=T=0
it always was.
thats the start.

keep your mind from this way of enquiry, for never will you show that not-being is
~parmenides

This message is a reply to:
 Message 161 by ICANT, posted 02-01-2008 2:04 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 164 by ICANT, posted 02-01-2008 2:15 PM tesla has not replied

ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 163 of 405 (453142)
02-01-2008 2:13 PM
Reply to: Message 159 by tesla
02-01-2008 1:48 PM


Re: Space-time
Hi tesla,
tesla writes:
why do you end your statements with "have fun"?
RAZD ues Enjoy and I don't want to infringe on his using it.
tesla writes:
it can be inflammatory, not that it is your intention, but its apparently condescending given the nature of the conversation.
I am just a Bible thumping pastor who is a born again child of the King.
But if that is the way it comes over I do not intend it to be so.
I will change to this one.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 159 by tesla, posted 02-01-2008 1:48 PM tesla has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 167 by tesla, posted 02-01-2008 2:18 PM ICANT has not replied

ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 164 of 405 (453143)
02-01-2008 2:15 PM
Reply to: Message 162 by tesla
02-01-2008 2:09 PM


Re: Re=T=0
Hi tesla,
tesla writes:
it always was.
thats the start.
So right on Genesis 1:1 Declares it.
God Bless,

This message is a reply to:
 Message 162 by tesla, posted 02-01-2008 2:09 PM tesla has not replied

New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 165 of 405 (453145)
02-01-2008 2:17 PM
Reply to: Message 161 by ICANT
02-01-2008 2:04 PM


Re: Re=T=0
OK at this point, where did it come from?
Don't you realize that asking where it came from implies a point in time before T=0? If there was no time before then, then how can the question be answered?
You still thinking of time in a linear fashion...
STOP IT!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 161 by ICANT, posted 02-01-2008 2:04 PM ICANT has not replied

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