Women In 1 Corinthians

Ah. Let me see if I understand this (with my puny left brain).You get to drop completely unsupported assertions and then beg off because ... you are so darn committed to the Forum Guidelines?Mmm hmm. Stop right there!That explains everything.As you understand it.Now I understand.Edited by molbiogirl, : No reason given.

{Superfluous snide remark - Content hidden - Stop it. - Adminnemooseus}Edited by Adminnemooseus, : See above.

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As in all the congregations of the saints, women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the Law says. If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church.

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i'm actually sort of curious about what "the Law" says. normally, i'd be the one to provide that context, but i'm actually drawing something of a blank here. probably just a subject i'm not overly familiar, but i can't recall a single old testament law stating that women should shut up in church.indeed, even in mosaic times, miriam was a prophet before moses. biblical judaism is, of course, a patriarchal system, but the odd exceptions do slip through, most prominently, deborah, esther, and (depending on your bible) judith.i might make a decent argument about this later, if prompted, but the male dominance in judaism (and homophobia, and extreme sexual laws) seems to come from aversion to asherah worship. asherah was the supposed wife of yahweh, a female god around which a fertility cult was organized.but this verse probably relates more to the practice of the layout of traditional orthodox jewish churches: men in front, women in back on a second tier. women talking to their husbands in that kind of church would create disorder pretty quickly. but i'm not sure -- it does sandwich this bit between stuff about prophecy.and also, for the record, "tongues" means languages, not random babbling. during the pentecost, the apostles were granted the gift of "speaking in tongues" so that the people in the audience could understand them. babbling is not a miracle. communicating in a language you don't normally speak is.

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Interesting topic, so I decided to do a little reading on it. There are NT manuscripts that go back to within 100 to 200 years of the time of Jesus, so they are actually very reliable. There are however, one or two cases, such as the end of Mark where early Christian scribes decided to clear up gaps or deficiencies. In the case of Paul's letters the manuscripts are very consistent with only one or two examples of differences. Verses 34 and 35 is one of those. Some early manuscripts didn't have it so it is possible that this was added later by someone with a vested interest in seeing that public worship be led by only males.However, it is still quite likely that Paul did write it. Obviously Paul's letters were culturally conditioned. He was writing to churches and societies that existed then which does not mean that we are not to take eternal truths from the Bible, but we have to be aware of the cultural setting at the time as well as be aware that we shouldn't build a theology around one or two verses.Look at Galatians 3:28.

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26You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus, 27for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

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This is a fairly clear statement of the equality of all. Also when Paul says as in Ephesians 5;25;

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25Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her

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we have to remember not only that Christ died for the church but that also that Christ came to serve the church. In the end I see Paul saying that wives are to serve their husbands and husbands are to serve their wives.In 1 Corinthians Paul writes that women who pray or prophesy should not do so with their head uncovered, nor should men do so with their head covered. Obviously he sees both men and women taking part in the worship in this case.The culture at the time was largely male dominated and as a result the women in general were short-changed on education. This may have led to some problems in various churches. I agree that in the end the statement in question is an enigma and that we don't have all the answers.

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Everybody is entitled to my opinion.

Mgirl, I don't need to go through history and document that my statements are true. It's common knowledge and the history books are full of evidence relative to the male leadership role in world cultures.If you wish to contend common knowledge it's up to you to support your claims.You can begin by falsifying my statement that men are more left frontal lobe dominant than women.

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BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

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You can begin by falsifying my statement that men are more left frontal lobe dominant than women.

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That's not how it works, madear.You can provide evidence for your claim, since you made it and it has been challeneged, or retract it.And by "evidence", we mean studies from the scientific literature.But if anything, women should be considered more "left-brained", since they tend to score higher on verbal tests, and the left half of the brain is responsible for verbal activity.Right?But anyway, since I already know that you won't provide such evidence, becasue you think you don't have to support your claims with evidence, ever, I've doen gone and debunked you, with a Christian website, no less. The difference being, of course, that they actually have some education in Psychology: sourcebolding added by me

I just want to point out that the likelihood that Paul actually put that in there himself is fairly low. First, I want to direct your attention to the surrounding passages:

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1Cor. 14:29 ” Let two or three prophets speak, and let the others weight what is said. If a revelation is made to another sitting by, let the first be silent. For you can all prophesy one by one, so that all may learn and all be encouraged; and the spirits of prophets are subject to prophets. For God is not a God of confusion but of peace. ... (37) If any one thinks that he is a prophet, or spiritual, he should acknowledge that what I am writing to you is a command of the Lord. If any one does not recognise this, he is not recognised. So, my brethren, earnestly desire to prophesy, and to not forbid speaking in tongues; but all thinks should be done decently and in order.

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Does not this seem a little out of place to have a "shut up, woman!" message just dropped into Paul's discussion on prophesying?Second, let me show you another passage that helps us understand Pauline theology as being much more male/female-equality oriented.

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Gal 3:27 ” For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There cannot be Jew nor Greek, there cannot be slave nor free man, there cannot be male and female. for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

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Now, you might notice that that final conjunction for "male and female" is often translated as "nor" (which sets the two in opposition), but we need to go back to the original Greek to see what it really was. For the conjunctions in the pairs "Jew nor Greek", "slave nor free man":

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Strong's Concordance ”

oude
oo-deh'
From G3756 and G1161; not however, that is, neither, nor, not even: - neither (indeed), never, no (more, nor, not), nor (yet), (also, even, then) not (even, so much as), + nothing, so much as.

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For the conjunction in "male and female":

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Strong's Concordance ”

kai
kahee
Apparently a primary particle, having a copulative and sometimes also a cumulative force; and, also, even, so, then, too, etc.

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It is clear from this, then, that Paul had set male and female up as being equals, instead of opposites as in the case of Jew/Greek, and slave/free.The Gospel of John is very female-friendly (likely compiled by a group containing many women). The letters of John are all written to the head of a church community who was obviously female.In the early Christian church, women and men were on relatively equal footing with women even holding serious leadership roles. I, and many scholars, would reason that it was not until after Christianity was adopted by the mainstream that the old Roman-world anti-female sentiment began to take hold, during which time the extra verse would have been inserted into Corinthians”because it obviously wasn't put there by Paul”, and the conjunction was intentionally mistranslated to show an opposition in men and women. In other words, anti-femalism is not really a feature of the original Christian church at all.Now, whether this has any bearing on the discussion at hand or not, I am not sure (there was too much for me to read through it all), but I still thought I would point these things out.Jon

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Beware the Jabberwock, my son!

I think that's an excellent point, Jon......except that it can't be taken into account by those who think the Bible is the literal Word of God. Once human additions and subtractions are accepted as existing, the entire literalist point of view collapses.Either the Bible is not literally true word for word, or the Bible does tell women to "shut the hell up."

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When you know you're going to wake up in three days, dying is not a sacrifice. It's a painful inconvenience.

Sorry for the late reply. Time is something I don't have much of lately. Seems like my free time is inversely proportional to the number of things I have to do cubed.Anyway, let's look at the whole chapter again.

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1 Corinthians 14
Gifts of Prophecy and Tongues

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1Follow the way of love and eagerly desire spiritual gifts, especially the gift of prophecy. 2For anyone who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God.

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So, when Paul was referring to speaking in tongues, he was talking about people speaking in jibberish like so many do nowadays in churches while in trance-like state. He's clearly not talking about speaking in a foreign language.

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Indeed, no one understands him; he utters mysteries with his spirit.

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Here is another clue to this. Again, clearly, he's not talking about people speaking in a foreign language like you made it out to be.

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3But everyone who prophesies speaks to men for their strengthening, encouragement and comfort. 4He who speaks in a tongue edifies himself, but he who prophesies edifies the church. 5 I would like every one of you to speak in tongues, but I would rather have you prophesy. He who prophesies is greater than one who speaks in tongues, unless he interprets, so that the church may be edified.

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6Now, brothers, if I come to you and speak in tongues, what good will I be to you, unless I bring you some revelation or knowledge or prophecy or word of instruction? 7Even in the case of lifeless things that make sounds, such as the flute or harp, how will anyone know what tune is being played unless there is a distinction in the notes? 8Again, if the trumpet does not sound a clear call, who will get ready for battle? 9So it is with you. Unless you speak intelligible words with your tongue, how will anyone know what you are saying? You will just be speaking into the air. 10Undoubtedly there are all sorts of languages in the world, yet none of them is without meaning. 11If then I do not grasp the meaning of what someone is saying, I am a foreigner to the speaker, and he is a foreigner to me. 12So it is with you. Since you are eager to have spiritual gifts, try to excel in gifts that build up the church.

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13For this reason anyone who speaks in a tongue should pray that he may interpret what he says. 14For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my mind is unfruitful. 15So what shall I do? I will pray with my spirit, but I will also pray with my mind; I will sing with my spirit, but I will also sing with my mind. 16If you are praising God with your spirit, how can one who finds himself among those who do not understand say "Amen" to your thanksgiving, since he does not know what you are saying? 17You may be giving thanks well enough, but the other man is not edified.

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18I thank God that I speak in tongues more than all of you. 19But in the church I would rather speak five intelligible words to instruct others than ten thousand words in a tongue.

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20Brothers, stop thinking like children. In regard to evil be infants, but in your thinking be adults. 21In the Law it is written:
"Through men of strange tongues
and through the lips of foreigners
I will speak to this people,
but even then they will not listen to me," says the Lord.

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22Tongues, then, are a sign, not for believers but for unbelievers; prophecy, however, is for believers, not for unbelievers. 23So if the whole church comes together and everyone speaks in tongues, and some who do not understand or some unbelievers come in, will they not say that you are out of your mind? 24But if an unbeliever or someone who does not understand comes in while everybody is prophesying, he will be convinced by all that he is a sinner and will be judged by all, 25and the secrets of his heart will be laid bare. So he will fall down and worship God, exclaiming, "God is really among you!"

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Orderly Worship

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26What then shall we say, brothers? When you come together, everyone has a hymn, or a word of instruction, a revelation, a tongue or an interpretation. All of these must be done for the strengthening of the church. 27If anyone speaks in a tongue, two”or at the most three”should speak, one at a time, and someone must interpret. 28If there is no interpreter, the speaker should keep quiet in the church and speak to himself and God.

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29Two or three prophets should speak, and the others should weigh carefully what is said. 30And if a revelation comes to someone who is sitting down, the first speaker should stop. 31For you can all prophesy in turn so that everyone may be instructed and encouraged. 32The spirits of prophets are subject to the control of prophets. 33For God is not a God of disorder but of peace.

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As in all the congregations of the saints, 34women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the Law says. 35If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church.

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36Did the word of God originate with you? Or are you the only people it has reached? 37If anybody thinks he is a prophet or spiritually gifted, let him acknowledge that what I am writing to you is the Lord's command. 38If he ignores this, he himself will be ignored.

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39Therefore, my brothers, be eager to prophesy, and do not forbid speaking in tongues. 40But everything should be done in a fitting and orderly way.

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Did you get that ICANT? In every part of that chapter, and in nearly every sentence, Paul mentioned speaking in tongues or prophesy except for that paragraph about women.Read it again, ICANT. Ask everyone else here. That really sounds to me like he was talking about speaking in tongues and then added in "by the way, women can't speak in church, blah blah blah".That paragraph about women not allowed to speak in church stands out as really not part of Paul's explanation about prophesy and tongues. It's just a brief reminder of a seperate issue that was related to speaking in tongues.Don't take my word for it. Ask everyone else here. Even Buzsaw would agree with me on this, that Paul wasn't talking about not allowing women to speak in a foreign language in church, which I think is pretty far fetched.Another thing is this. For thousands of years, people have been interpreting this as women not being allowed to speak in church. Then, here comes the latter part of the 20th century and all the sudden you started to interpret it as Paul not allowing women to speak in a foreign language in church.Again, ask everyone else here. Anyone who can even read at a 6th grade level with agree with me, that that paragraph was an extra bit put in by Paul to remind us of a seperate issue.Edited by Taz, : No reason given.

The bible is the written word of god. Every part of it is true. Ask the two resident preachers (ICANT and Buz).

DOH! I must have misplaced that fact in my brain whilst typing the previous post.All apologies; continue on, now. Jon

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Beware the Jabberwock, my son!

would love a reply to my message regarding left/right brain, buz.

Hi Taz, I am truly glad you are such a Bible Scholar.ABE Especially since you don't believe in it.God Bless,Edited by ICANT, : No reason given.

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"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

Without getting into the OP passage, which I don't understand as it seems to contradict other passages even in the same letter, i would like to throw in a thought about this.Per The Man Who Mistook His Wife for a Hat by Oliver Sacks, who has all the appropriate credentials for this sort of subject, damage to the right side of the brain can completely shut down verbal communication in various ways. There is verbal activity that belongs to the left half of the brain, but the right side of the brain also plays a major role, since damage can completely stop verbal communication.I hope that's on topic. I think it is, even though it references one portion of one argument off the OP.

Hi Taz and other posters.I have not read ALL of the submissions to this discussion yet. I will go back and continue to read. But I would like to submit to the discussion.When we read that women are to be silent in the church we have to consider some important things. Paul writes that they are permitted to speak at home.Now, in the early days of the Christian church many very important meetings occured at the homes of the believers. In Jerusalem eventually there ended up being ( conservatively ) be about 10,000 Christians. This is based alone on Peters two messages which produced 5,000 and 4,000 believers.Now Acts says that they "met from house to house." So we could say that there may have been at least 100 home meetings of the church in Jerusalem. That would be about 100 people per home meeting. Probably there were not that many participants in a Christian meeting in each person's home.But if you had 100 or more homes where women were free to speak, you apparently had a lot of Christian sisters speaking in Christian meetings, I think. Ten thousand believers met from house to house and in the tempple, until they were chased out of the temple to meet only in thier homes in Jerusalem.Now if a typical church in a city was divided into multiple house meetings in the homes of the believers, and the apostle Paul permitted the sisters under his apostolic care, to speak in their homes, for sure you had a lot of speaking from women in home meetings.Today, many hear the word "church" and assume a physical edifice or building of some kind where according to Paul, women should keep silence. The church is the people and not the building. My problem with so non-speaking women in the church is that
too many meetings of the saints occured in their homes. So they must have been ample opportunity to her the sisters prophesy.Paul said "You can all prophesy one by one." Prophesy is not just to predict. It is to speak forth the Christian God and speak for Christ in words of encouragement and edification. So in the homes, in the houses, many women MUST have been speaking in home meetings. And if they were speaking rightly as they and the brothers should, they were speaking spiritual edification and building up of the church in the homes gatherings.Today, these home gatherings are called by some "cell groups." But many denominations which practice home meeting or cell groups grow to include huge numbers of Christians.So we can forget the mental picture of women being altogether silent in early Christian gatherings.All things considered I think Paul did not want women to be authoritatively defining doctrines. And perhaps the major definitions of doctrines WERE taking place in large full church gatherings. But alternatively, as today, many many gatherings had to be in the homes of couples or famililies where Paul did expect the sisters to speak.I contribute this not as a conclusive answer to the original question, but to hopefully enhance the consideration of the larger perspective.Many thousands of meetings of mutual encouragement, edification, spiritual excercise, building up, teaching, testimony and prayer, were conducted in homes of the believers, where Paul expected the sisters to SPEAK.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.