What evidence is needed to change a creationist

quote:

---

But you have to realize that creationist have no way of testing our "theories" but every day a evolutionist is testing something different.

---

Of course Creationists can test their "theories".Just because they do not choose to subject their theories to the rigors of real scientific testing doesn't mean that they can't.They don't seem to have any interest in doing any research whatsoever, actually. They spend the majority of their time and money on PR campaigns and lobbying efforts.

quote:

---

Then when they have 1 successful test they say that it's been proven, they do small experiments and use them as base for evolutionary life.

---

There are actually many, many, many successful tests of Evolutionary theory. Millions, perhaps billions.Every time a new fossil is found to be located in a place it was predicted to be found, that is a test of the theory, for example.

quote:

---

Things work differently on a large scale than on a smaller scale. The things from long times ago are different than the things we have today. They have matured and micro-evolved to survive in new environments, the world is constantly changing. Look at a river a thousand years ago. Now it has either dried up or has grown. There is no way to know what happened at the beginning of time. So it's just crazy to "prove" something by doing modern experiments and call it fact!

---

So, do you believe that events from long ago never leave evidence of having happened?

quote:

---

If we indeed evolved from something else (apes, chimps , etc.) into what we are today and the process took millions of years where is the chain of species between the two extremes (us as humans today and the chimp, ape at the other end)

---

It isn't a chain, but more like a bush.However, there is no direct chain between chimps and apes and humans because we didn't decend from chimps or apes.Modern apes and chimps, and humans, share a common ancestor.

quote:

---

The answer most of my friends have given me is that everything that branched off from that chain of link died off , but I tell them that seems all to convenient that every single thing died off and not even one line between existed

---

Why? That sort of thing happens all the time.Homo sapiens sapiens' last related subspecies was probably Homo sapiens neanderthalensis and went extinct only about 30,000 years ago. They probably co-existed with Homo sapiens sapiens for the last 15,000 of that.On the other hand, we are extremely closely related to Bonobo Chimpanzees, with over 99% of our DNA being identical to theirs.

quote:

---

but docent it seem to convenient to say anything that didn't evolve enough to be humans just died.

---

No.Most of the life that has ever existed on Earth is extinct.Extinction is the norm. This isn't "convenient", it is simply a direct observation of the facts.And there isn't any goal to evolution, either. None of the other apes were "trying" to be human so they could survive, or something.Evolution just doesn't work that way.

quote:

---

someone somewhere has to survive.

---

Nope. There's no rule that says something has to survive.There were once at least 17,000 species of Trilobite, but not a single one is known to have survived to today.We might find one someday, of course, but the fact still remains that the vast, vast majority of them are long gone.Extinct.

quote:

---

If Monkeys can survive , wouldn't 50% evolved humans survive?

---

There is no such thing as "50% evolved". Every species is 100% evolved.OTOH, there are, in fact, "99% humans" alive today, though. They are called Pan paniscus, or "Bonobo chimpanzees.And again, there is no rule that any particular species "has to" survive".Some do, but most don't.

quote:

---

What surprises me is the theory that is so rich in data and evidence can say that they just died

---

Like I said above, extinction is the norm.The reason we know they lived and became exinct is from the evidence found in nature.

quote:

---

and to say it happens all the time , I mean how do we know for a Scientefic fact that it happened.

---

Know of any living Trilobites?Extinction is the norm.

quote:

---

I mean its just that it seems theory makes so many assumptions that to me have not been proven as facts.

---

Can you even correctly state what the theory is?Can you summarize what the Theory of Evolution is in a few sentences without having to go look it up somewhere?I predict that you cannot, and that should tell you something.If the ToE is so poorly supported, then are all Evolutionary Biologists stupid? Or liars?

quote:

---

how do we know that "it happens all the time" can you please point me to scientific proof , I would love to learn and read more

---

Extinction - Wikipedia

quote:

---

and how do we know for a fact everything that branched off "Died"

---

Do you see any Neanderthals walking around today?

quote:

---

1. how do we know it happens all the time (study , facts, proof ?)

---

see above

quote:

---

2. how do we know about the not 100% evolved humans going extinct ?

---

Again, everything is 100% evolved.We have fossils and archaelogical evidence of Neanderthals, but no known living Neanderthals.Pretty safe to say, I think, that Neanderthals have died out.Edited by nator, : No reason given.Edited by nator, : No reason given.

Here's a couple of illustrations of the branch of the evolutionary tree of life with the primates on it.I hope these help to illustrate things for you. Edited by nator, : No reason given.

quote:

---

no not everyone that believed in ToE is liars and biggots.

---

But what about "stupid"? Are the Geneticists and Biologists whi use the Theory of Evolution in their work every day somehow deluded or just such incompetent scientists that they don't realize that the foundational theory of their fields is fatally in error?

quote:

---

Its a theory that people believe in and some don't.

---

What is it, though, that you think you are arguing against?Can you explain it in a couple of sentences?If you can't, what do you think that means about your knowledge of it?Again, are the Biologists and Geneticists just "believing" in the ToE, or do they actually use it as the foundation of their work every day, do you think?

quote:

---

My only complain is still you have not pointed me to a scientific study of your answers which I would like to read.

---

Um, did you read the references at the end of the wiki on Extinction?There's at least half a dozen clickable links to scientific papers there.

quote:

---

I dont believe in creationism as described in the bible , but I am not convinced by evolution. Why is it that we have to take one of the two as facts ?

---

What do you think evolution claims?

quote:

---

Isnt it just possible that 100 years from now the ToE is proven to be incorrect by some other theory.

---

Nothing is ever proven in science.The correct concept is "falsified". This means that every scientific theory, no matter how established, must always be able to be addressed if new information comes to light.To answer your question, sure, it is possible.It is possible that the Theory of the Heliocentric Solar System, the Germ Theory of Disease, and the Atomic Theory of Matter will also be falsified.Are you suggesting that we should pretend that we don't know anything, simply becasue we can't ever know everything?

quote:

---

My point being so far I have no read any literature that is convinced me that ToE is a False proof 100% correct theory.

---

Nothing in science is 100% proven or correct.Please, I am begging you, tell me in your own words what you think the theory of Evolution states.I suspect that you don't really know, or have an incorrect notion of what it is.

quote:

---

You see your answers are not convincing me

---

And you aren't telling me why they aren't convincing you.You aren't discussing the evidence, you are just denying.

quote:

---

you are telling me its fact and thats it.

​

How do we even know that 17,000 species of Trilobite existed. Once again can you provide me the link of the study that showed that so i can read it that all of them went extinct and how ?

---

Sure.Trilobite - Wikipedia
A Guide to the Orders of Trilobites
Introduction to TrilobitesYou know, it wouldn't kill you to do a bit of your own googling.Look, can you just think for a minute about what you've asked.How do we know that there were 17,000 species of Trilobite? How do you think we know? Do you know that such things as fossils exist?I mean, come on, I'm starting to think you are pulling my leg.You act like you've never heard of extinction, and now you act all shocked that we might have a reason to think that there were 17,000 species of trilobite.Exactly how much science/Biology education do you actually have?Edited by nator, : No reason given.Edited by nator, : No reason given.

Hope you aren't a hit and runner.

Excellent.I look forward to your response.

OK, I think you were putting me on when you said that you weren't a hit and run poster.Come on, time to actually discuss the evidence I provided.Don't be afraid. Learning new things is really quite enjoyable.

Look, the wiki page on extinction is only a page. The trilobite wiki is only a page.You don't need to read the entire giant trilobite website to understand that there are ten orders, five thousand genera and seventeen thousand species.You must have realized by now that it is the fossil record which has provided that evidence.Those two points were the only reason I sent you to those websites, so I think it is time for you to either concede that 17,000 species of trilobites exist and that all of them are now exitinct, or tell me why you don't concede.What I'd really like to get back to even more is the basics, which consists of what you believethe Theory of Evolution to be.It is my belief that you do not have an accurate idea of what it is and what it claims, so any evidence we provide will be useless unless and until you are clear about what it is.I would be happy to provide a definition for you and answer any questions you might have.So please, asif, let's start at the begining, with the theory iteself, so that the work you and I do to follow isn't wasted. Edited by nator, : No reason given.

---

'Explanations like "God won't be tested by scientific studies" but local yokels can figure it out just by staying aware of what's going on have no rational basis whatsoever.' -Percy"What we need is not the will to believe but the will to find out." - Bertrand Russell"Man's greatest asset is the unsettled mind." - Isaac Asimov"We not only believe what we see, to some extent we see what we believe
...The implications of our beliefs are frightening." - Richard Gregory