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Author | Topic: Biblical Creationism Requires Evolution | |||||||||||||||||||||||
RAZD Member (Idle past 1431 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
Yes and the type of evolution would have to be macromacroevolution. Haven't you heard about superevolution? YouTube video of the Creation Museum display They also have to use speciation to reach the diversity of life as we know it.
Arguments we think creationists should NOT use: "No new species have been produced.":
quote: This is the essence of my argument in Evolution and the BIG LIE thread. The only real disagreement is the number of common ancestors.
if there was one beele kind, there would have to be a new species evolving every 6 days to reach the ~250,000 species of beetles currently catalogued. Worse: the period of superevolution was only a couple hundred years after the big wash and rinse cycle. So evolution doesn't happen and evolution\science is wrong, creation is right and evolution happens rapidly? Enjoy. by our ability to understand RebelAAmericanOZen[Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share.
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1431 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
In an article titled The non-transitions in ”human evolution’-on evolutionists’ terms, creationist John Woodmorappe writes: Worse still is that creationists don't agree and that this does not worry them (they just want something to prove evolution wrong). From the "superevolution" link above:
quote: The picture shows "Lucy" in the ape lineage and no speciation in the human lineage at all. (Of course they also misrepresent the current scientific thinking, but we know they don't like\understand that anyway - the place is full of falsehoods, so what's one more?). Enjoy.
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1431 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
I'm not sure if that is the same thing as superevolution or not, "superevolution" is what creationists (have to) use to populate the world with the current diversity from a small population of species on some wooden ship ... and no, it is not the same as real evolution. It would have to occur at such a rate as to be visible, on the order of days per new species.
You're right, an ape splitting off into seperate species of apes is evolution, but then again creationists don't have a problem with evolution in general. Correct, the problem is in which and how many common ancestors we started with. Exaberated by an insistence on a falsified concept regarding the age of the earth.
Creationists have a problem with macro and steller evolution. What you are talking about is micro-evolution, Stellar evolution has nothing to do with biological systems or any part of the science of biology, rather it is a term with a special meaning withing the science of astronomy. Macro evolution is a different issue, usually having to do with misunderstanding of taxonomy and what speciation means to biodiversity. Perhaps you can define what you think "macro evolution" involves ... Welcome to the fray Lemkin. Enjoy. by our ability to understand RebelAAmericanOZen[Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. • • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1431 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
but it also means it should not rule out the possibilities of man being the start of man, and apes a evolution off that start. If apes evolved from humans why are there still humans? (sorry couldn't resist}
just because man initially is less complicated in by whats "apparent" doesn't mean it didn't have other traits that might be more valuable. Seriously though, what you need to project into the past has to be tied to the fossil evidence. This has nothing to do with complication or simplicity of DNA groupings of genes into arbitrary chromosomes and the arrangement of chromosomes within an organism (no set pattern required, the numbering and naming is just arbitrary tags so we can talk about them). We'd have to be able to look at the chromosomes of older genomes: it would be interesting to know how many chromosomes Neanderthals had. I've not been able to find that piece of information. Enjoy. Note: I searched this site for reference to the numbers of chromosomes in the various articles we had on Neander DNA and did not find any. Edited by RAZD, : ) Edited by RAZD, : added note re moose comment. by our ability to understand RebelAAmericanOZen[Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. • • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1431 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
Trixie
type: [url=insert your url here]this message is linked to an url[/url]and it becomes: this message is linked to an url Long urls force the page to be wider than the screen, and thus make reading the posts difficult.Please edit the one you have in Message 81 so we can read the page. For other formating tips see Posting Tips Enjoy. Edited by RAZD, : by our ability to understand RebelAAmericanOZen[Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. • • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1431 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
It's the
Mutation, Recombination, and Reassortment as Evolutionary Forces Mutation, recombination and segment reassortment contribute to the evolution of most DNA and RNA viruses. Sometimes one form of genetic change appears to be more prominent than another, and sometimes the concerted action of recombination or reassortment with mutation is apparent, (i.e., antigenic drift in influenza virus, following the origin of a new antigenic type through reassortment) [snip] Reference to a diagram in the text[snip]. Fields, B.N., Knipe, D. M. & Howley, P.M.(2007) Fields Virology 5th Edition, Volume 1, p 397 (Lippincott, Williams and Wilkins, publishers; ISBN0781760607)
http://books.google.com/books?id=5O0somr0w18C&pg=...etc one, that is too wide for my iddle screen. Thanks. by our ability to understand RebelAAmericanOZen[Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. • • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1431 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
proof: a study of foxes discovered that selecting and breeding by flight distance caused changes in color and attitude in a much much shorter time than originally thought. (wish i had a link to the study) Try ABC.net.au: Page not Found
quote: and Domestication of the dog - Wikipedia
quote: Enjoy. by our ability to understand RebelAAmericanOZen[Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. • • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1431 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
Fascinating stuff eh? Here's a clip from the NOVA program
It's sad that they have had to sell off or disperse many of the animals involved in the study. Domesticated silver fox - Wikipedia
quote: This seems to support evo-devo -- with the secondary characteristics that result from selecting for calmer response (lower adrenaline levels in each generation) results in additional traits due to the effect of the hormone during development. This seems to apply to all domesticated animals (the secondary traits) so this effect of lower adrenaline seems pretty uniform: http://www.floridalupine.org/...tions/PDF/trut-fox-study.pdf
quote: Long article EARLY CANID DOMESTICATION: THE FARM FOX EXPERIMENT quote: Isn't this macro-evolution of traits emerging that are not in the original population? Could not these differences also have affected humans as they became more "domesticated" by larger groups living together (or nearby in cooperation)? Enjoy. by our ability to understand RebelAAmericanOZen[Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. • • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1431 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
Welcome to the fray, I-am-created.
One: The traits that are emerging WERE in the original population. According to the articles the floppy ears, color patches, curled up tail, shorter\wider face -- are not in the original wild population.
The animals were bred specifically for their lack of agression and what came from that was a less agressive fox. The floppy ears, color patches, curled up tail, shorter\wider face -- are not selected for, the only selection criteria was the passive behavior.
While the changes in phyical appearance may lead some to think that this is macro-evolution, it unfortunately does not prove that the foxes 'evolved' into dogs. As noted, the purpose was not to turn foxes into dogs, just into domesticated foxes, and nothing is ever proven in science. The other changes that occurred to the foxes on the way to becoming a domesticated breed are new traits for the species that evolved over a number of generations -- this is evolution by normal biological definitions -- and they demonstrate divergence from the parent population (wild foxes) by acquiring traits not in the parent population: this is what occurs in macro-evolution by normal biological definitions. Of course the real issue is "when does change become sufficient to be "macro"evolution and how does it occur?" Perhaps you'd like to help me out on this definition on MACROevolution vs MICROevolution - what is it? So far I haven't gotten a usable definition from a creationist. Enjoy. For some formating tips see Posting Tips by our ability to understand RebelAAmericanOZen[Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. • • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1431 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
Welcome to the fray onifre.
First I'd like to say that I don't know how to quote people on this site so bare with me...maybe someone can help. type [qs]quotes are easy[/qs] and it becomes:
quotes are easy See Posting Tips for more formats. Enjoy. by our ability to understand RebelAAmericanOZen[Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. • • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •
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