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Author Topic:   Biblical Creationism Requires Evolution
TheNaturalist
Member (Idle past 5704 days)
Posts: 86
Joined: 01-18-2008


Message 1 of 121 (451140)
01-26-2008 2:13 PM


Biblical creationism claims that there was one form of life for every category of life (which might mean, say, genus, family, even species, but its hard to know; it wasn't clear, like everything the bible claims).
However, since there is so much genetic difference between species (and even subspecies) of most types of life, there would have to be considerable change in the genome of most species in an extremely short period of time. If I'm not mistaken, this time amount is 4,000 years (the "flood" supposedly happened about 2,000 years after the supposed development of Earth and the universe I think).
However, look then, at the future. If, for example, about .1% (reference below) of the genetic difference between dogs can happen in about 4000 years, then it might only take, say, about 40,000 years for a 1% change in the genome, which is almost the same difference between humans and chimpanzees.
So, if creationists believe that all of life variety happened within about 4,000 years as the bible says, then they would have to accept evolution anyways.
According to this website:
There are 2.5 million single nucleotide polymorphism differences in some pairs of dog breeds.
If so, then since there are probably less than 3 million nucleotides in the dog genome(since humans have 3 million nucleotides in their genome, and I doubt dogs' genomes are as complex as the human genome), then there has to be about .1% difference (1/1000 difference) between some dog breeds.
Edited by TheNaturalist, : Because I was told to, that's why. Now stop asking question
Edited by Admin, : Minor fixes, run spellcheck, change title.

Replies to this message:
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TheNaturalist
Member (Idle past 5704 days)
Posts: 86
Joined: 01-18-2008


Message 3 of 121 (451176)
01-26-2008 4:11 PM
Reply to: Message 2 by Admin
01-26-2008 3:12 PM


Could you give your proposal a proof-read and fix the places where the grammar or formatting is a little rough? Also, to turn a URL into a real link, just put "http://" in front of it. Click the edit button at the bottom of your message. Post a short note to this thread when the edit is complete and I'll take another look.
It's edited now

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TheNaturalist
Member (Idle past 5704 days)
Posts: 86
Joined: 01-18-2008


Message 27 of 121 (453257)
02-01-2008 6:33 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by Crooked to what standard
02-01-2008 4:18 PM


quote:
Science has found no evidence to support the idea of a global flood at that or any other time.
Well, if the Flood did happen, and it happened by the hydro plate theory (my personal favorite), then there would be quite a bit of evidence for it. The Mid-Oceanic Ridge, the Grand Canyon, the Ice Age (and frozen mammoths in Siberia), the most recent mass extinction of animals, the sedimentary layers, etc.
So no, there isn't no evidence for a flood. There are a few theories on the flood, and there are evidence for all (or at least most) of them.
You see, you have to realize that if the phenomena that you are trying to describe opposes a rule or rules of reality, it cant be true.
The "flood" would require that more total water existed on earth after the flood than before it, during the flood. This is because if the earth is to be suddenly "flooded with water", there would, of course, have to be much more water on earth after the flood.
This would oppose the fact that water, in the solar system, will be formed by: 1. a biological process, 2. nuclear fusion or fission, 3. other chemical(abiological, but possibly organic) processes.
1. according to the flood, there wouldnt be any increase in water by any biological process during this time, since they would be destroyed during this time; and there would especially not be enough new water to produce worldwide flooding.
2. Of course, nuclear fusion or nuclear fission will likely produce no water, in the solar system, any more, until the sun collapses.
3. Several chemical processes for this might have been allowed to happen according to the "flood" story, but of course, not nearly enough water would be produced.
There is yet another theory, that water was "trapped in the atmosphere" until the flood; but of course, this is ridiculous because since there is of course no water trapped in the atmosphere now, and the earth is not flooded, so the extra water couldnt have gone anywhere. Also, it is of course impossible for so much incredible amounts of water to be trapped in air, as it would condense and fall to earth at levels much lower than that supposed by the "flood" story.

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TheNaturalist
Member (Idle past 5704 days)
Posts: 86
Joined: 01-18-2008


Message 29 of 121 (453441)
02-02-2008 8:40 AM
Reply to: Message 28 by tesla
02-02-2008 1:19 AM


Re: correct. but misled.
first point: evolution is a true and ongoing observation, and a universe created works as designed by the designer.
Yes, I understand
second point: evolution does not prove the universe wasn't designed to operate that way by God.
It makes it appear less likely....but yes, it does not disprove it.
last point:
the dog and man evolutionary timetables are probably wrong.
proof: a study of foxes discovered that selecting and breeding by flight distance caused changes in color and attitude in a much much shorter time than originally thought. (wish i had a link to the study)
a scientist had observed dogs at a garbage dump, and noticed some had greater flight distances than others. the initial start of the dog is believed to be the wolf. which is smarter and stronger than a dog. the fox study shows that apparently, if wolves had discovered human leftovers ina consistent place (such as a dump) that the wolves of greater flight distance would leave and not return, but the wolves of lesser flight distance would return. and that if the wolves with a lesser flight distance were to constantly breed could change quite drastically, quite quickly, to dog.
by this observation it is apparent that dog is a lesser form of the wolf, because it chose to scavenge instead of hunt. wolves in the natural environment are smarter and stronger because they choose to hunt.
You are saying that it takes much less time(because of a dividing line or lines of selection) to evolve sometimes than thought, but there is no evidence to support that the timetables of dog or human evolution are wrong, based on archeological and paleantological evidence, and radioactive dating.
Also, what does this have to do with any point here? How is it significant in any way?

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Replies to this message:
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TheNaturalist
Member (Idle past 5704 days)
Posts: 86
Joined: 01-18-2008


Message 31 of 121 (453482)
02-02-2008 10:39 AM
Reply to: Message 30 by tesla
02-02-2008 8:46 AM


Re: correct. but misled.
its relevant by the topic initially posted, which "seemed" to point absolutely the timetables of dog or man evolution, which by the fox study show that the power of choice can either slow down or speed up evolutions of living things.
it also explains my belief on the relevance of that choice as stated by those who believe in creation as opposed to "chance" existence.
This does not allow, however, for the developement of such difference in some creatures within this period of time. Dogs seemingly couldnt develope a .1% difference within 4000 years, and if they could, then if you look at the future, macro evolution will happen anyway.
The deduction that if biblical creation is true then macro evolution will happen anyway is intended to destroy biblical creationism in some mindframes, but not to destroy your notion, though your notion is false by other evidences.

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Replies to this message:
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TheNaturalist
Member (Idle past 5704 days)
Posts: 86
Joined: 01-18-2008


Message 34 of 121 (453619)
02-03-2008 1:10 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by tesla
02-03-2008 12:20 PM


Re: correct. but misled.
ok, here is what im saying:
if dogs are a lesser form of wolf by way of evolution,
why isn't it possible then, for apes to be a devolution in the "man" family tree?
Firstly, it depends on what you consider to be a "lesser" form. It's kind of subjective, so dont use it as evidence.
Secondly, organisms can be "lesser" for a particular environment, but not for another kind of environment; hippos are "lesser" than wooly mammoths in the cold siberian climates, but hippos are "greater" than wooly mammoths in the hot african climates.
Thirdly, about apes being a "de-evolution"(this doesnt make sense) of man, humans clearly existed after their ape-like ancestors, considering genetic mutations (humans have almost all of the mutations apes do, but they also have more mutations, since they came after creatures that were ape-like).
here is the argument: from studying even recent evolution of modern man, man has apparently been getting taller in its evolution, so the earlier man could quite logically be much smaller. or the traits between the male and female of the genus be more diverse. biblical account of woman coming from the rib of man suggests that woman would be much smaller , if you look at it scientifically , a statement from the bible of course.
Frankly I dont know the purpose of putting this here...
Discovered by Donald Johanson in 1973 at Hadar in Ethiopia (Johanson and Edey 1981; Johanson and Taieb 1976). Estimated age is about 3.4 million years. This find consisted of portions of both legs, including a complete right knee joint which is almost a miniature of a human knee, but apparently belongs to an adult.
and:
In short, there is a wide range of opinions about the nature of the footprints and whether A. afarensis could have made them. Most creationists usually cite only Tuttle, whose conclusions they find most convenient. The most honest conclusion, for now, is to admit that although no-one can be entirely sure what made the Laetoli footprints, it seems quite likely that they belonged to australopithecines.
and:
Australopithecines stood about 1-1.5 m in height and had relatively small brains typically measuring between 370 and 515 cm3 (cc)--only slightly larger than the brain of a chimpanzee. The australopithecine mode of locomotion has been a point of controversy, usually centered around the shape of australopithecine pelvis and knee bones. Early studies believed the australopithecine pelvis was a clear-cut precursor to Homo with human-like bipedality, while later studies of australopithecine locomotion found it to be different from modern apes, but also very different from humans--a distinct mode of locomotion. The most common consensus is that forms of australopithecines were adapted for both tree-climbing and at least semi-upright, if not fully upright walking, having a mode of locomotion different from all extant primates, including humans and modern apes.
there are tons of different ideas, and huge arguments from creationists and evolutionists, and disagreement within both parties within themselves since no conclusion is yet available.
it would appear to me, that apes are more likely a devolution of man from this data.
earlier skulls of earlier genus that were found are not complete enough for me to draw a conclusion, and i cant relate the fragments as a part of the "man" tree.
How does any of this support the theory that apes developed from humans?

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TheNaturalist
Member (Idle past 5704 days)
Posts: 86
Joined: 01-18-2008


Message 35 of 121 (453621)
02-03-2008 1:14 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by TheNaturalist
02-03-2008 1:10 PM


Re: correct. but misled.
Ah yes, and just to clarify, "devolution" doesnt make sense, since evolution cant be reversed.
This is because any change in the genetics of a species is evolution, so the "devolution" you are talking about, since it is a change (from humans to apes), is just evolution, not "devolution".

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TheNaturalist
Member (Idle past 5704 days)
Posts: 86
Joined: 01-18-2008


Message 94 of 121 (454863)
02-08-2008 10:07 PM
Reply to: Message 93 by tesla
02-07-2008 9:48 AM


Re: correct. but misled.
OKAY
Everyone consider this:
Here, I will present two mechanisms for genetic change, both which seem to be relevant to your discussions.
1. Chromosomes are combined in certain ways; 23 total chromosome pairs means a lot of different genomes can exist. If no chromosome is to change(almost impossible) then, certain kinds of chromosomes would be passed down rather than some others, because of selective pressures and probability. Other kinds would be in the male or female's reproductive cells during their lives, but not combine to construct a genome, since again, these kinds of chromosomes would not be present in the construction of a genome.
Eventually, consider this: it is almost certain that chromosomes would continue to be lost; as by the mechanism I described just above. If there is to be no changing in the kinds of chromosomes (as assumed just above) then, since the number of kinds of chromosomes which would compose the genome would likely go down, there would be an imbreeding effect which would cause the downfall of the species, eventually.
This would be because 1. the species would become less able to adapt, of course, since less genetic variation allows for a lower number of different kinds of genotypes which can exist in a species, which allows for a less varied group of environments which the species can adapt to. Also, 2. with more and more genetic similarity between two parents, more liklihood for recessive traits developes; and since recessive traits are mostly bad, the overall health of the species would likely go down.
2. The second mechanism for evolutionary transition is mutation. This destroys the precise likliness of a chromosome, and destoys the above described effect.
Even though mutation only allows for change in the genetics of a species to happen at a very slow rate, it is fast enough to destroy the above effect of imbreeding.
You see?

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TheNaturalist
Member (Idle past 5704 days)
Posts: 86
Joined: 01-18-2008


Message 96 of 121 (454952)
02-09-2008 2:08 PM
Reply to: Message 95 by tesla
02-08-2008 10:14 PM


Re: correct. but misled.
but as you point out, over time, the variation would be enough that the slowly cancelled effects wouldn't be near as important in latter times as it is in the earlier, but that in the earlier a species could still survive and eventually be quite diverse.
cool thats just cool
i did interpret that right? right?
Actually, no; variation would not become greater over time, necessarily, nor would this have to be significant; its just that the variation would not decrease since even though chromosomes are constantly being lost(since not all chromosomes, of course, are passed down), mutation makes variation happen. Therefore, there would be two opposing forces of increasing variation verses decreasing variation.
And, the average genetic likliness of the species would almost certainly change, over time, unless it is unusually stable. With nearly inevitable environmental change and sexual selection(in some species) and random change which has any level of significance, but still causes change in the average genetic likliness of a species, this would happen.
if yes, then in effect, one man, and one woman, could become nations of men and wemon.
Again, the men and women would almost certainly become of different genetic character; which means they wouldnt really be able to avoid inbreeding, they would just have to evolve.
And, anyways, mutation is never fast enough to allow two closely-enough related members of a species to reproduce and not produce a deformed infant, such as a brother and sister, or mother-son or father-daughter(which by the way is freaking disgusting anyways, god must be a freaking sicko.....); though, relationships such as these would have to happen according to genesis.
Edited by TheNaturalist, : are you that fucking nosy? go fuck yourself.

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TheNaturalist
Member (Idle past 5704 days)
Posts: 86
Joined: 01-18-2008


Message 98 of 121 (454969)
02-09-2008 3:14 PM
Reply to: Message 97 by tesla
02-09-2008 2:40 PM


Re: correct. but misled.
why not? i mean, if a Chinese man has a child with a Irish woman, the child is quite diverse isn't it?
and a black man and white woman, isn't the child more diverse?
and over time, wouldn't the diversity expand?
Not enough
isn't that the whole thesis of evolution, the changes and diversity over time?
Changes in the average genetics of a species yes; but not the average difference between an individual in the species and another
well right about the according to Genesis.
but in theory, if a man and woman had 6 children, and the children and mother and father all had more children, some would be defective, some would be "about" normal. then the cousins mate, and the diversity grows, until the tree is far enough down the genetics work.
like, if i trace my family tree father side..i can find a common ancestor on my mothers side, but there so many generations removed, its irrelevant.
whats your thoughts on this theory?
No; there would be too much genetic similarity between any of these members soon

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Replies to this message:
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TheNaturalist
Member (Idle past 5704 days)
Posts: 86
Joined: 01-18-2008


Message 100 of 121 (454997)
02-09-2008 5:44 PM
Reply to: Message 99 by tesla
02-09-2008 3:18 PM


Re: correct. but misled.
by the data I've viewed in the world as a whole, it would appear to me your conclusions are missing a variable in the original thesis of the balance.
perhaps the mutations can work for or against the other variables.
for me, your conclusions i cannot accept at heart, something is missing.
ill have to conclude no conclusion.
why?

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 Message 101 by tesla, posted 02-09-2008 5:50 PM TheNaturalist has replied

  
TheNaturalist
Member (Idle past 5704 days)
Posts: 86
Joined: 01-18-2008


Message 102 of 121 (455027)
02-09-2008 8:35 PM
Reply to: Message 101 by tesla
02-09-2008 5:50 PM


Re: correct. but misled.
correct, and i understand; but, inbreeding's negative effects would have to occur before so much variation could happen.

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Replies to this message:
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TheNaturalist
Member (Idle past 5704 days)
Posts: 86
Joined: 01-18-2008


Message 104 of 121 (455033)
02-09-2008 9:12 PM
Reply to: Message 103 by tesla
02-09-2008 8:39 PM


Re: correct. but misled.
however, it is more probable that the first man, and first woman, did not have identical DNA.
there was no "first man" or "first woman"; a species existed to change into the human species, with time

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TheNaturalist
Member (Idle past 5704 days)
Posts: 86
Joined: 01-18-2008


Message 114 of 121 (455981)
02-14-2008 8:40 PM
Reply to: Message 111 by I-am-created
02-10-2008 9:24 PM


Re: fox video and evo-devo?
One: The traits that are emerging WERE in the original population. The animals were bred specifically for their lack of agression and what came from that was a less agressive fox.
Hey guess what? Looks like you cant comprehend very much in terms of science, and/or biology.
The genetic and chemical processes which create the elements of the brain which cause aggression (wait....let that sink in...comprehend...NOW continue) change, from one generation of foxes to future generations, with time. Some of these changes in the chemical mechanisms for causing aggressiveness, as an offset, caused completely other, unrelated traits of the fox(i.e. it's fur color) to change from one generation to the subsequent generations.
So, when one part of a genome is pressured because of selection, there are actually many changes to the genome which can occur. Evolution can happen at a quick rate, therefore. Usually natural selection changes much more than only what is under selective pressure.
Do you understand?
Edited by TheNaturalist, : hey by the way you are not created

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