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Author Topic:   Women In 1 Corinthians
Taz
Member (Idle past 3292 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 31 of 106 (454775)
02-08-2008 5:20 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by ICANT
02-06-2008 12:28 PM


Re: Re-Put Down
ICANT writes:
I am truly glad you are such a Bible Scholar.
ABE Especially since you don't believe in it.
I'm going to assume you're being sarcastic.
I've read that whole chapter over and over and I still can't see how you could possibly interpret that as not allowing women to speak in a foreign language in church. I even explained in detail why I don't think there's anyway you could possibly interpret that bit as forbidding women to speak in a foreign language in church.
Aren't you just trying to rationalize this like so many christians do?
PS - I'll see you in heaven... from hell.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by ICANT, posted 02-06-2008 12:28 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 32 by ICANT, posted 02-08-2008 8:57 PM Taz has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 32 of 106 (454851)
02-08-2008 8:57 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by Taz
02-08-2008 5:20 PM


Re: Re-Put Down
Hi Taz,
Taz writes:
I've read that whole chapter over and over and I still can't see how you could possibly interpret that as not allowing women to speak in a foreign language in church. I even explained in detail why I don't think there's anyway you could possibly interpret that bit as forbidding women to speak in a foreign language in church.
The entire chapter is concerning speaking in other tongues and
prophesying. So why would Paul change in just one verse.
There are other passages that talk about women praying in church, teaching in church. They can't do either of those if they can't speak about anything.
I would comment on the Ps but Percy would probably scream.
God Bless,

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by Taz, posted 02-08-2008 5:20 PM Taz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by Taz, posted 02-09-2008 2:21 PM ICANT has replied

  
Taz
Member (Idle past 3292 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 33 of 106 (454957)
02-09-2008 2:21 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by ICANT
02-08-2008 8:57 PM


Re: Re-Put Down
ICANT writes:
The entire chapter is concerning speaking in other tongues and
prophesying. So why would Paul change in just one verse.
Read the whole chapter again. Be honest with yourself. Does that single paragraph fit in with the rest? Again, Paul somewhat wandered off topic to remind people of a separate issue that was related to the main topic.
Ask yourself this question. When you talk about something, do you always 100% absolutely always 100% absolutely must stick true to the topic from top to bottom? Noone talks like that in real life. Not even in literature. There are bits that we all put into our words that are seperate issues from what we are talking about. Everything we say reminds us of something else, and sometimes we say it out loud.
Read the whole chapter again. I even went through the trouble of outlining for you a few posts ago how the rest of the chapter fit in with speaking in tongues and prophesying except for that single paragraph. Are you honestly telling me that after reading the whole chapter you don't find that paragraph stick out one single bit?
Here is another test to see if I'm right or you're right. Next time when you go to one of your preaching sessions, without hinting your stance, ask everyone to read that chapter and ask them if they thought Paul was talking about not allowing women to speak ina foreign language in church or not.
No matter how many times I read it, and I've asked other people to read this chapter over and over, we all still agree that that paragraph did not appear to be talking about not allowing women to speak in a foreign language in church. I don't know why you are insisting that Paul was forbidding women to speak in a foreign language in church.
For the lazy readers who don't want to go back a page to read the chapter, here it is again. Be honest to yourself for once. Ask yourself if that paragraph looks like it was talking about women speaking in a foreign language or not.
quote:
1 Corinthians 14
Gifts of Prophecy and Tongues
1Follow the way of love and eagerly desire spiritual gifts, especially the gift of prophecy. 2For anyone who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God.

So, when Paul was referring to speaking in tongues, he was talking about people speaking in jibberish like so many do nowadays in churches while in trance-like state. He's clearly not talking about speaking in a foreign language.
quote:
Indeed, no one understands him; he utters mysteries with his spirit.
Here is another clue to this. Again, clearly, he's not talking about people speaking in a foreign language like you made it out to be.
quote:
3But everyone who prophesies speaks to men for their strengthening, encouragement and comfort. 4He who speaks in a tongue edifies himself, but he who prophesies edifies the church. 5 I would like every one of you to speak in tongues, but I would rather have you prophesy. He who prophesies is greater than one who speaks in tongues, unless he interprets, so that the church may be edified.
6Now, brothers, if I come to you and speak in tongues, what good will I be to you, unless I bring you some revelation or knowledge or prophecy or word of instruction? 7Even in the case of lifeless things that make sounds, such as the flute or harp, how will anyone know what tune is being played unless there is a distinction in the notes? 8Again, if the trumpet does not sound a clear call, who will get ready for battle? 9So it is with you. Unless you speak intelligible words with your tongue, how will anyone know what you are saying? You will just be speaking into the air. 10Undoubtedly there are all sorts of languages in the world, yet none of them is without meaning. 11If then I do not grasp the meaning of what someone is saying, I am a foreigner to the speaker, and he is a foreigner to me. 12So it is with you. Since you are eager to have spiritual gifts, try to excel in gifts that build up the church.
13For this reason anyone who speaks in a tongue should pray that he may interpret what he says. 14For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my mind is unfruitful. 15So what shall I do? I will pray with my spirit, but I will also pray with my mind; I will sing with my spirit, but I will also sing with my mind. 16If you are praising God with your spirit, how can one who finds himself among those who do not understand say "Amen" to your thanksgiving, since he does not know what you are saying? 17You may be giving thanks well enough, but the other man is not edified.
18I thank God that I speak in tongues more than all of you. 19But in the church I would rather speak five intelligible words to instruct others than ten thousand words in a tongue.
20Brothers, stop thinking like children. In regard to evil be infants, but in your thinking be adults. 21In the Law it is written:
"Through men of strange tongues
and through the lips of foreigners
I will speak to this people,
but even then they will not listen to me," says the Lord.
22Tongues, then, are a sign, not for believers but for unbelievers; prophecy, however, is for believers, not for unbelievers. 23So if the whole church comes together and everyone speaks in tongues, and some who do not understand or some unbelievers come in, will they not say that you are out of your mind? 24But if an unbeliever or someone who does not understand comes in while everybody is prophesying, he will be convinced by all that he is a sinner and will be judged by all, 25and the secrets of his heart will be laid bare. So he will fall down and worship God, exclaiming, "God is really among you!"
Orderly Worship
26What then shall we say, brothers? When you come together, everyone has a hymn, or a word of instruction, a revelation, a tongue or an interpretation. All of these must be done for the strengthening of the church. 27If anyone speaks in a tongue, two”or at the most three”should speak, one at a time, and someone must interpret. 28If there is no interpreter, the speaker should keep quiet in the church and speak to himself and God.
29Two or three prophets should speak, and the others should weigh carefully what is said. 30And if a revelation comes to someone who is sitting down, the first speaker should stop. 31For you can all prophesy in turn so that everyone may be instructed and encouraged. 32The spirits of prophets are subject to the control of prophets. 33For God is not a God of disorder but of peace.

As in all the congregations of the saints, 34women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the Law says. 35If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church.
36Did the word of God originate with you? Or are you the only people it has reached? 37If anybody thinks he is a prophet or spiritually gifted, let him acknowledge that what I am writing to you is the Lord's command. 38If he ignores this, he himself will be ignored.
39Therefore, my brothers, be eager to prophesy, and do not forbid speaking in tongues. 40But everything should be done in a fitting and orderly way.
Added by edit.
Also ask yourself this question. The rest of the chapter, Paul was very specific when he talked about tongues and prophesy. He even used those words everytime he refered to them. But all the sudden, he was too lazy to say "it is disgraceful for women to speak in tongues or prophesy in church"? Look at the underlined portions in that paragraph. It is clear to me that he wasn't talking about not allowing women to speak in a foreign language in church.
Edited by Taz, : No reason given.
Edited by Taz, : No reason given.
Edited by Taz, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by ICANT, posted 02-08-2008 8:57 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 34 by ICANT, posted 02-09-2008 3:07 PM Taz has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 34 of 106 (454968)
02-09-2008 3:07 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by Taz
02-09-2008 2:21 PM


Re-Put Down
Hi Taz,
Taz writes:
So, when Paul was referring to speaking in tongues, he was talking about people speaking in jibberish like so many do nowadays in churches while in trance-like state. He's clearly not talking about speaking in a foreign language.
Taz no place in the chapter in the orginal Greek is the word unknown used when talking about speaking in tongues.
In fact the only time unknown is used in the New Testament is in:
{qsAc 17:23 For as I passed by, and beheld your devotions, I found an altar with this inscription, TO THE UNKNOWN GOD. Whom therefore ye ignorantly worship, him declare I unto you.
Paul knew what word to use to say unknown.
If Paul wrote the verses 34 and 35 he was talking about speaking in other languages and prophesying.
But there is the possibility it was added by someone other than Paul.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by Taz, posted 02-09-2008 2:21 PM Taz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 35 by Taz, posted 02-09-2008 3:41 PM ICANT has replied

  
Taz
Member (Idle past 3292 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 35 of 106 (454974)
02-09-2008 3:41 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by ICANT
02-09-2008 3:07 PM


Re: Re-Put Down
Unknown? Who said anything about the word unknown? Here is that sentence again
quote:
1 Corinthians 14
Gifts of Prophecy and Tongues
1Follow the way of love and eagerly desire spiritual gifts, especially the gift of prophecy. 2For anyone who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God.
Did you get that, ICANT? When Paul referred to speaking in tongue, he was talking about people speaking directly to god. How on Earth can you interpret that as speaking in a foreign language? Paul was clearly talking about people speaking in jibberish when they are in a trance-like state.
Again, don't take my word for it. Ask anyone here or anyone at all at your congregation. They'll tell you the same thing.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by ICANT, posted 02-09-2008 3:07 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 36 by ICANT, posted 02-09-2008 4:08 PM Taz has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 36 of 106 (454980)
02-09-2008 4:08 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by Taz
02-09-2008 3:41 PM


Re-Put Down
Hi Taz,
Have it your way.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by Taz, posted 02-09-2008 3:41 PM Taz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 37 by Taz, posted 02-09-2008 4:43 PM ICANT has not replied

  
Taz
Member (Idle past 3292 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 37 of 106 (454984)
02-09-2008 4:43 PM
Reply to: Message 36 by ICANT
02-09-2008 4:08 PM


Re: Re-Put Down
*Sigh*
I'm not trying to be dense and I'm not trying to be hardheaded. I'm simply pointing out obvious flaws in your interpretation. I honestly don't see how on Earth you could interpret "speaking in tongue" as speaking in a foreign language, especially when Paul specifically said those who speak in tongue are speaking directly to god. Are you saying that Mexicans who speak Spanish in an American church are speaking directly to god?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by ICANT, posted 02-09-2008 4:08 PM ICANT has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 38 by Buzsaw, posted 02-09-2008 4:57 PM Taz has replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 38 of 106 (454987)
02-09-2008 4:57 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by Taz
02-09-2008 4:43 PM


Re: Tongues
Taz writes:
I'm not trying to be dense and I'm not trying to be hardheaded. I'm simply pointing out obvious flaws in your interpretation. I honestly don't see how on Earth you could interpret "speaking in tongue" as speaking in a foreign language, especially when Paul specifically said those who speak in tongue are speaking directly to god. Are you saying that Mexicans who speak Spanish in an American church are speaking directly to god?
Hi Taz. To go into the reasons why would be off topic to this thread but for the record I and a large segment of evangelicals agree with you that speaking in tongues is not necessarily the gift of an operative existing foreign tongue.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by Taz, posted 02-09-2008 4:43 PM Taz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 39 by Taz, posted 02-09-2008 5:01 PM Buzsaw has not replied
 Message 40 by nator, posted 02-09-2008 5:35 PM Buzsaw has not replied

  
Taz
Member (Idle past 3292 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 39 of 106 (454989)
02-09-2008 5:01 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by Buzsaw
02-09-2008 4:57 PM


Re: Tongues
Even you would agree with me on this one. I just don't know how ICANT could interpret that bit as forbidding women to speak in a foreign language in church. It doesn't make any sense to me. Paul specifically said that to "speak in tongue" is to speak directly to god. How did ICANT interpret that to mean to "speak in tongue" is to speak in a foreign language like greek or french or whatever?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by Buzsaw, posted 02-09-2008 4:57 PM Buzsaw has not replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2171 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 40 of 106 (454996)
02-09-2008 5:35 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by Buzsaw
02-09-2008 4:57 PM


Re: Tongues
A reply to my message 21 in this thread would be appreciated.
I provided what you asked for, after all.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by Buzsaw, posted 02-09-2008 4:57 PM Buzsaw has not replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 41 of 106 (455010)
02-09-2008 6:20 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by nator
02-01-2008 7:20 PM


Brain Properties Supportive Of Male Leadership Role
nator writes:
Buzsaw writes:
the science of the brain as I understand is that men are more left frontal lobe and women more right frontal lobe.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Your understanding is wrong. In fact, your statement is 100% false.
I'm still researching the human brain and how it functions. Perhaps the following University of Ca at Irvine UCI STUDY supports my point that functional differences in male/female brain properties render the male brain as being more suitable for the leadership role in human society.
This study as well as my comments in no way suggest that the male brain is more intelligent than the female brain. It does however confirm my point that there is a different functional intelligence role relative to the sexes.
Imo, this is all supportive to the Biblical statements in both the Old Testaments and the New Testaments of the Bible that the male brain is better suited to leadership in social aspects of human culture.
Intelligence in men and women is a gray and white matter
Men and women use different brain areas to achieve similar IQ results, UCI study finds
Irvine, Calif. , January 20, 2005
While there are essentially no disparities in general intelligence between the sexes, a UC Irvine study has found significant differences in brain areas where males and females manifest their intelligence.
The study shows women having more white matter and men more gray matter related to intellectual skill, revealing that no single neuroanatomical structure determines general intelligence and that different types of brain designs are capable of producing equivalent intellectual performance.
“These findings suggest that human evolution has created two different types of brains designed for equally intelligent behavior,” said Richard Haier, professor of psychology in the Department of Pediatrics and longtime human intelligence researcher, who led the study with colleagues at UCI and the University of New Mexico. “In addition, by pinpointing these gender-based intelligence areas, the study has the potential to aid research on dementia and other cognitive-impairment diseases in the brain.”
Study results appear on the online version of NeuroImage.
In general, men have approximately 6.5 times the amount of gray matter related to general intelligence than women, and women have nearly 10 times the amount of white matter related to intelligence than men. Gray matter represents information processing centers in the brain, and white matter represents the networking of - or connections between - these processing centers.
This, according to Rex Jung, a UNM neuropsychologist and co-author of the study, may help to explain why men tend to excel in tasks requiring more local processing (like mathematics), while women tend to excel at integrating and assimilating information from distributed gray-matter regions in the brain, such as required for language facility.
These two very different neurological pathways and activity centers, however, result in equivalent overall performance on broad measures of cognitive ability, such as those found on intelligence tests.
The study also identified regional differences with intelligence. For example, 84 percent of gray-matter regions and 86 percent of white-matter regions involved with intellectual performance in women were found in the brain’s frontal lobes, compared to 45 percent and zero percent for males, respectively. The gray matter driving male intellectual performance is distributed throughout more of the brain.
According to the researchers, this more centralized intelligence processing in women is consistent with clinical findings that frontal brain injuries can be more detrimental to cognitive performance in women than men. Studies such as these, Haier and Jung add, someday may help lead to earlier diagnoses of brain disorders in males and females, as well as more effective and precise treatment protocols to address damage to particular regions in the brain.
For this study, UCI and UNM combined their respective neuroimaging technology and subject pools to study brain morphology with magnetic resonance imaging. MRI scanning and cognitive testing involved subjects at UCI and UNM. Using a technique called voxel-based morphometry, Haier and his UCI colleagues converted these MRI pictures into structural brain “maps” that correlated brain tissue volume with IQ.
Dr. Michael T. Alkire and Kevin Head of UCI and Ronald A. Yeo of UNM participated in the study, which was supported in part by the National Institute of Child Health and Human Development.
(Embolding mine for emphasis)

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by nator, posted 02-01-2008 7:20 PM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 42 by Modulous, posted 02-09-2008 7:00 PM Buzsaw has replied
 Message 45 by nator, posted 02-10-2008 7:18 AM Buzsaw has not replied

  
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 42 of 106 (455018)
02-09-2008 7:00 PM
Reply to: Message 41 by Buzsaw
02-09-2008 6:20 PM


Interesting. I guess that since women have a brain more suited to language processing the Bible would naturally prefer them as prophets. I know I'd rather have a leader who is an excellent communicator rather than a brilliant mathematician.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by Buzsaw, posted 02-09-2008 6:20 PM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 43 by Buzsaw, posted 02-09-2008 11:38 PM Modulous has not replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 43 of 106 (455054)
02-09-2008 11:38 PM
Reply to: Message 42 by Modulous
02-09-2008 7:00 PM


Women Prophets Biblical
Hi Mod. I appreciate your excellent contribution and the manner in which you debate your ideology.
Modulous writes:
Interesting. I guess that since women have a brain more suited to language processing the Bible would naturally prefer them as prophets. I know I'd rather have a leader who is an excellent communicator rather than a brilliant mathematician.
As a matter of fact women played a significant role exercising the gift of prophecy in the Bible. The only implied New Testament restriction relative to this gift is that they weren't to voice the prophecies in the assembly. Likely they prophesied outside of the assembly including the homes and market places etc.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by Modulous, posted 02-09-2008 7:00 PM Modulous has not replied

  
johnfolton 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5592 days)
Posts: 2024
Joined: 12-04-2005


Message 44 of 106 (455058)
02-10-2008 1:21 AM


The Purpose of a Woman !!!!!!!
I see it more that its shameful for the woman to wear the pants kind of the problem with Hiliary Clinton.
Likely there are some cocky liberal women that will read this so just remember this link is from a woman not a man but a woman talking to women.
Forbidden
I found it interesting that Hiliary is running for president and her obsession with elenore roosevelt in respect to divination, womans rights, etc... Her book on it takes a village sounds like delegating the womans purpose to the village, now thats shameful, wonder if some of her inspiration for her book came from the devil she was divinating with, and if its somehow all related to the mystery babylon, going all the way back to the Chaldeans, Ninevah, etc...
Interestingly it appears the destruction of the mystery babylon might well go all the way back to Nienevah kjv nahum 3:4-19 and revelation 17:5. Some believe the mystery babylon is not a mystery the statue of liberty is an exact literal picture of revelation 17:4. It seems it goes all the way back to Ninevah heres a link that gives a bit of insite to the problem.
17:16 And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire. 17 For YHWH hath put in their hearts to fulfil His will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of YHWH shall be fulfilled.
The idol Ishtar (represented by the Statue of Liberty) was known, in ancient Babylon, as the goddess of personal freedom and the goddess of immigrants. This very freedom has brought to these shores every false religion known to man. Even if one were to have the wisdom of Solomon, they would still be vulnerable to the snares of false religions. Solomon committed fornication with the whore of Revelation 17...
Mystery Babylon
Edited by johnfolton, : No reason given.

Replies to this message:
 Message 46 by nator, posted 02-10-2008 7:32 AM johnfolton has not replied
 Message 64 by Trixie, posted 02-11-2008 6:08 PM johnfolton has replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2171 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 45 of 106 (455074)
02-10-2008 7:18 AM
Reply to: Message 41 by Buzsaw
02-09-2008 6:20 PM


Buz, your study doesn't support your view, it supports mine
From your quote:
The study shows women having more white matter and men more gray matter related to intellectual skill, revealing that no single neuroanatomical structure determines general intelligence and that different types of brain designs are capable of producing equivalent intellectual performance.
This means, essentially, that this study found that just because male and female brains have some general differences in structure, those differences are irrelevant to what male and female brains are capable of.
So, your claim that "the science of the brain as I understand is that men are more left frontal lobe and women more right frontal lobe." is not just unsupported, but your own source debunks it.
So, are you going to do the honest, honerable thing and retract your claim?
Edited by nator, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by Buzsaw, posted 02-09-2008 6:20 PM Buzsaw has not replied

  
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