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Author Topic:   Before Big Bang God or Singularity
Son Goku
Inactive Member


Message 272 of 405 (453522)
02-02-2008 4:25 PM
Reply to: Message 269 by ICANT
02-02-2008 2:00 PM


Re: Orgin
ICANT writes:
So why not instead of insulting remarks you just take [msg262]
and go down it line by line and show me where I am wrong.
Your mistake has been the same from the start, that of taking the singularity as a physical object that exists and demanding an explanation of where it came from. I keep explaining this to you and you keep ignoring it.
If you find me pointing this out insulting, then it's difficult for me to see what I should do. Should I allow you this factual error to avoid hurting your feelings? Surely you can see it from my point of view.
Does Hawking say a spacetime is singular?
........
Gravity determines the topoogy of the manifold on which it acts.
Everything down to here is correct.
ICANT writes:
Does he say The positive curvature of spacetime produced singularities at which classical general relativity broke down.
The positive curvature of spacetime can be used to infer the existence of a singularity.
ICANT writes:
The positive curvature of spacetime produced singularities.
Spacetimes with positive curvature (and satisfying certain conditions) contain singularities.
I think you might be confusing the mathematical concept of inferring with the physical concept of creating. Hawking is proving a theorem about spacetimes. He is saying that given a general relativistic spacetime with positive curvature, there will be a singularity somewhere in the spacetime. However the curvature didn't "create the singularity".
Think of Pythagoras' theorem. Given the properties of a right angled triangle then a^2 + b^2 = c^2. Where a and b are two sides and c is the hypotenuse. However a,b and c didn't "create the triangle".

This message is a reply to:
 Message 269 by ICANT, posted 02-02-2008 2:00 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 274 by ICANT, posted 02-02-2008 5:30 PM Son Goku has replied

Son Goku
Inactive Member


Message 275 of 405 (453538)
02-02-2008 6:43 PM
Reply to: Message 274 by ICANT
02-02-2008 5:30 PM


Re: Orgin
ICANT writes:
I am beginning to think the only mistake I made was expecting an answer.
Your question has no answer. I'm not sure what more we can do.
ICANT writes:
At T=0+ expansion began which created space, time, gravity and everything that it took to create all the things that we see in the universe and the things we can not see.
This is wrong. Nothing is known about T=0 or the short period after it. The earliest thing we know is that the universe was expanding and was hot and dense.
The reason we know nothing about T=0 is that it is proven that General Relativity has a singularity there and is unreliable.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 274 by ICANT, posted 02-02-2008 5:30 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 276 by ICANT, posted 02-02-2008 7:17 PM Son Goku has replied
 Message 279 by tesla, posted 02-03-2008 10:02 AM Son Goku has not replied

Son Goku
Inactive Member


Message 277 of 405 (453562)
02-03-2008 5:42 AM
Reply to: Message 276 by ICANT
02-02-2008 7:17 PM


Re: Orgin
ICANT writes:
Since you did not address the other 2 I am going to assume you agree those are OK. Correct me if I am wrong in this assumption.
The other two are correct.
The basic picture is that the universe was expanding at T=0+ (to use your terminology). The expansion did not begin at the point, simply we know that the expansion was occuring then and it is the earliest period when we are sure of what was happening. Also this expansion didn't create the universe. Spacetime and gravity were already in existence at this point.
Previous to that we don't know what was going on because Hawking and Penrose have proven general relativity is unreliable because there is a singularity. They proved general relativity has a singularity because of properties like spacetime curvature.
However this is a mathematical proof about the structure of general relativity and its predictive capability and not a statement that the curvature created some object called a singularity.
Edited by Son Goku, : Expansion.
Edited by Son Goku, : Detailing a point I missed.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 276 by ICANT, posted 02-02-2008 7:17 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 278 by ICANT, posted 02-03-2008 8:53 AM Son Goku has replied

Son Goku
Inactive Member


Message 280 of 405 (453581)
02-03-2008 10:04 AM
Reply to: Message 278 by ICANT
02-03-2008 8:53 AM


Big Bang.
ICANT writes:
Would you please clearify by giving me your understanding of the Big Bang Theory as it is taught today.
The universe is in a small, hot and dense state at around 13.7 billion years. It expands from that state and eventually turns into the universe we see today.
Now internet sites and tv documentaries might say differently and will erreoneously claim the universe "came from a signularity" or came from "an infinitely small point", but this is not correct.
Instead let's see what an actual cosmological textbook says:
To quote P.J.E. Peebles' Principles of Physical Cosmology page 6:
The familiar name for this picture, the "big bang" cosmological model, is unfortunate because it suggests we are identifying an event that triggered the expansion of the universe...... [this] is wrong.
If there were an instant,........,when our universe started expanding it is not in the cosmology now accepted.
[The standard model of cosmology] succesfully describes the evolution back to a time when the mean distance between conserved particles was some ten orders of magnitude smaller than it is now.
So what Peebles is saying is that the standard model of cosmology (sometimes called the Big Bang theory) describes the universe's early life. It starts at the point when particles were 10^10 times closer to each other than they are on average today. This is roughly 13.7 billion years ago. However it does not start at the beginning of the universe.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 278 by ICANT, posted 02-03-2008 8:53 AM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 281 by tesla, posted 02-03-2008 10:53 AM Son Goku has not replied
 Message 283 by Phat, posted 02-03-2008 11:21 AM Son Goku has replied
 Message 286 by Buzsaw, posted 02-03-2008 12:08 PM Son Goku has replied
 Message 288 by ICANT, posted 02-03-2008 1:15 PM Son Goku has not replied

Son Goku
Inactive Member


Message 284 of 405 (453595)
02-03-2008 11:33 AM
Reply to: Message 283 by Phat
02-03-2008 11:21 AM


Re: Big Bang.
I wouldn't quite say there is anybody who believes anything about the period. Most are skeptical of even their own models. However there are those who propose that the universe was large again prior to the hot and dense state. For example Randall(Harvard), Turok(Cambridge), Steinhardt(Princeton).

This message is a reply to:
 Message 283 by Phat, posted 02-03-2008 11:21 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 285 by Phat, posted 02-03-2008 11:54 AM Son Goku has not replied

Son Goku
Inactive Member


Message 287 of 405 (453606)
02-03-2008 12:41 PM
Reply to: Message 286 by Buzsaw
02-03-2008 12:08 PM


Re: Big Bang.
Buzsaw writes:
So the standard model now is not a model inclusive of the beginning of the universe. Science has no model for how the universe began. Is that what you're saying?
There is no experimentally confirmed model of how the universe began (however much "began" and other such words make sense in these contexts), that is correct. It'd be major headline news if there was. We can only track it back to 13.7 billion years ago.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 286 by Buzsaw, posted 02-03-2008 12:08 PM Buzsaw has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 289 by ICANT, posted 02-03-2008 1:25 PM Son Goku has replied

Son Goku
Inactive Member


Message 292 of 405 (453786)
02-04-2008 7:29 AM
Reply to: Message 289 by ICANT
02-03-2008 1:25 PM


Re: Big Bang.
ICANT writes:
Son will there ever be any way to track it past that hot dense area?
Since there was only a hot mass, how would we ever be able to get any evidence other than what comes out of someone's mind or imagination?
Well gravitational wave astronomy may be able to see further when the technology is advanced enough. The Large Hadron Collider in CERN may be able to learn something. Plus there are several cosmological tests of theories about the previous era. However it's a difficult area and it could take some time.
I think the word small is not the real word that should be used.
Small possibly isn't the best word, that's true. It's actually that there was (I know this will sound wierd) less distance around back then. To be honest, what ever word helps you to make sense of it is probably the best word.
You suggested area, I think volume would be better. Area is only meters squared and matter occupies meters cubed. Then again you might mean area in a looser sense.
This thread is ending soon, but I think we're coming to a better understanding of cosmology. So maybe a fresh thread in light of this one would be a good. Maybe one were people can ask about what we do know of the history following the hot dense state 13.7 billion years ago. For example if people are interested in questioning how stars or galaxies formed.
An interesting fact that might get people interested in such a thread is that we know the whole history of the universe following the hot dense state, except for what caused an unusual event roughly five billion years ago.
I apologize if I have been snapy with you ICANT, it can be difficult for me to appreciate how confusing this stuff is to somebody outside the field.
Edited by Son Goku, : Adding prospects for future thread.
Edited by Son Goku, : Apologize

This message is a reply to:
 Message 289 by ICANT, posted 02-03-2008 1:25 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 293 by ICANT, posted 02-04-2008 9:38 AM Son Goku has replied

Son Goku
Inactive Member


Message 295 of 405 (453830)
02-04-2008 11:27 AM
Reply to: Message 293 by ICANT
02-04-2008 9:38 AM


Re: Big Bang.
If we go back in time to T=0 we have a mass between 5 and 7 billion light years in diameter. I have no idea what shape it would be. But I would assume it was probably pretty much the shape of the universe today.
13.7 billion years ago the whole universe was about the size of a pea. With the same amount of matter packed into it, hence it was very dense. It wasn't 5 billion light years wide until a while later.
Premise 1: Singularity including the Big Bang is the best explanation for the orgin of the universe. Falasified
I still think this conclusion is correct according to the information that was examined.
The Big Bang was never intended to be a theory of the origin of the universe. It only purports to explain the early history of the universe and is well established in this regard. It is slightly unfair to say it failed at a task it never attempted.
I do not see any way of gathering evidence beyond T=0 as it was approximately 15 million degrees at that time.
At the earliest point we can measure the universe is already at 1,160,400,000,000,000 degrees. (roughly) (1 quintillion degrees)
But you guys were trying to put forth Hawking's unbounded theory and I did not want to get into that discussion in this thread.
I only discussed the Hawking-Penrose singularity theorems. I think the Hawking-Hartle no boundary proposal was only mentioned once.
But does that make it correct?
In my opinion No.
Well it is the correct theory of the early universe. It's not a theory of the universe's origins and never was.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 293 by ICANT, posted 02-04-2008 9:38 AM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 296 by ICANT, posted 02-04-2008 1:25 PM Son Goku has not replied
 Message 298 by johnfolton, posted 02-05-2008 1:48 AM Son Goku has not replied
 Message 300 by ICANT, posted 02-07-2008 2:50 PM Son Goku has not replied

Son Goku
Inactive Member


Message 402 of 405 (455072)
02-10-2008 6:47 AM
Reply to: Message 400 by Admin
02-10-2008 5:20 AM


Re: Should This Thread Remain Open
I'd agree with cavediver. Although the thread was quite interesting initially, it has become very difficult to follow. Also the reappearance of "Where did the singularity come from?", given that this has been explained several tens of times, indicates to me that it isn't going anywhere.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 400 by Admin, posted 02-10-2008 5:20 AM Admin has not replied

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