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Author Topic:   Free will, or is it?
Logic
Member (Idle past 5014 days)
Posts: 31
From: Australia
Joined: 02-11-2008


Message 1 of 163 (455348)
02-11-2008 11:35 PM


I've read many threads in these forums; however I’ve held back on many responses due to pure laziness. My topic of discussion is quite different to debates that have taken place here.
If god gave us free will, then how can he know the out come of our choices, thus how can prophecies be made?
If the end times are coming then some of us are domed as sinners and others for heaven. God should already know who’s been naughty, and who’s been nice, so really there is no free will just predefined destinies. I'd like hear you responses on this topic
Oh I’m a atheist however I believe that every human is connected just not in a spiritual way >.< yeah kinda weird.

Replies to this message:
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Logic
Member (Idle past 5014 days)
Posts: 31
From: Australia
Joined: 02-11-2008


Message 33 of 163 (455501)
02-12-2008 5:43 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by ICANT
02-12-2008 5:10 PM


0.o
Wow, Guys you have been in a typing race since I posted this thread. I went to bed shortly after and have only just awoken to find myself a mini series.
Firstly I'd like to thank everyone for there contribution, so far I've determined this:
Religious believers (sorry I don't know what to call all the non-atheist here so please correct me) believe that god knows the outcome of our choice before it is made, even though we have the freewill to make our choices.
So .
Ok, lets for sake of argument agree with this. If this is so then god knew Adam was going to dam the human race. Therefore he must have know that I’m going to hell because I was born a bastard (Dam my mum and dads child hood flings) and I’m not a christen or any other religious follower.
So even though I have got freewill I'm not in the best position anyways =(
But this also makes me think upon my earlier topic. If he knows our outcome then god would know what my unborn child’s (assuming theres a Mis Logic out-there), child’s overall decision is. How is this even so when there soul has yet to be created?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by ICANT, posted 02-12-2008 5:10 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 34 by tesla, posted 02-12-2008 5:53 PM Logic has not replied
 Message 35 by ICANT, posted 02-12-2008 6:03 PM Logic has replied
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Logic
Member (Idle past 5014 days)
Posts: 31
From: Australia
Joined: 02-11-2008


Message 37 of 163 (455510)
02-12-2008 6:13 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by ICANT
02-12-2008 6:03 PM


I believe either through God or through self independence I have free-will I don’t deny that.
I can also understand the application of cause and effect; he knows the outcome. I'm assuming lets say he knows the outcome from the beginning to the end, which he should being an omnipotent God.
He knew the moment he created men, the result of his actions would be an imperfect being.
God created Adam and Eve (he knew Adam would take the apple and then sin. God flooded the whole planet leaving Noah to survive yet he knew sin would continue on even after the mass genocide of the human race.
Now God knows my outcome to not become a religious follower but more so understand them.
So what I don’t get is how a god knowing everything and passing us free-will can possibly sit idly by knowing that he created a planet that was doomed from the start to harvest more sinners then repent-ers. I may be getting bit off my own topic of free-will here but I see this argument interconnected if god knows our free will choices then he must know how it’s to end.
God should have known Adam was going to eat from the tree of knowledge, so
A) He didn’t know thus Adam ate from the tree and dammed us all (except the people who repent)
B) He knew and wanted humanity to sin so that we could worship him
C) He knew or didn’t know doesn’t matter but has lost the power to be able to intervene. He once flooded the planet yet he is unable to change anything in modern times . maybe gods not as present as he once was

This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by ICANT, posted 02-12-2008 6:03 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
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Logic
Member (Idle past 5014 days)
Posts: 31
From: Australia
Joined: 02-11-2008


Message 39 of 163 (455516)
02-12-2008 6:38 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by CK
02-12-2008 6:17 PM


Hehe CK your harsh but true. I was trying to be nice about it by showing them from within there own bible of how it just can't work but man you just go straight for goal 0.o

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by CK, posted 02-12-2008 6:17 PM CK has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 41 by ICANT, posted 02-12-2008 6:52 PM Logic has replied

  
Logic
Member (Idle past 5014 days)
Posts: 31
From: Australia
Joined: 02-11-2008


Message 42 of 163 (455519)
02-12-2008 7:00 PM
Reply to: Message 41 by ICANT
02-12-2008 6:52 PM


Re: Re-Free Choice
Yes I have heard both sides of the argument, and yes free-will is my own choice the question however is "Is free-will a god given choice or something of a natural cause and effect under no control of a higher entity"
I think we can pretty much leave it at that, debating who or how we obtained free choice is pretty much dead. From reading all the above comments no further new input has been added.
In conclusion it’s either:
1) God gave us free-will and he knows the outcome of everything to have ever existed which invokes unknown mechanics of predetermined outcomes.
Or..
2) God doesn’t know our choices which would explain - to me at least why there are so many problems within the bible and contradictions
Then again there might be no God at all =)
Edited by Logic, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by ICANT, posted 02-12-2008 6:52 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
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Logic
Member (Idle past 5014 days)
Posts: 31
From: Australia
Joined: 02-11-2008


Message 44 of 163 (455522)
02-12-2008 7:10 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by iano
02-12-2008 7:02 PM


Hello Iano
Know where messing with the constraints of time, however there is no need to go that far, I'll make it quite timely simple:
GE 3:1-7, 22-24 God allows Adam and Eve to be deceived by the Serpent (the craftiest of all of God's wild creatures). They eat of the "Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil," thereby incurring death for themselves and all of mankind for ever after. God prevents them from regaining eternal life, by placing a guard around the "Tree of Eternal Life." (Note: God could have done the same for the "Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil" in the first place and would thereby have prevented the fall of man, the necessity for Salvation, the Crucifixion of Jesus, etc.)
See to me God doesn’t seem very omnipotent here, therefore if he’s not omnipotent how can he know outcome of our free-decisions, which cuts it down further
1) There is no God
2) Maybe there is God but he’s no more Omnipotent then you or me

This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by iano, posted 02-12-2008 7:02 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
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