Free will, or is it?

Omnipotence.Sure, it doesn't follow logic, but logic is not very useful for finding truth.

Then we don't have Free Will. If that is the case, then the ant has no choice in where it will be and what it will be doing, in other words: It doesn't have Free Will.

If you can determine what they will do by knowing it, then they had no choice but to do it, and thus they had no free will. If he really knew it, then she did not have a choice in being pissed. If being pissed was not her choice then it was not from free will. If she did choose to be pissed, then she could have choosed not too and then he didn't actually know what she would be.

Then he didn't know that she was going to be pissed. Know, in the absolute sense that is required for prophecies, etc like this thread is talking about. Its about absolute predictablitly, as in preordination and destiny, prophecy, etc. If these are true then we do not have a choice and we lack free will. But if god know your choice before you choose it then you aren't really choosing because you have to choose what god knows you will choose otherwise god doesn't really know what your choice is.God puts you infront of two rooms A and B. You have to choose one room. But god knows that you will choose A before you choose it. Can you then decide to choose B instead? If you can, then god didn't know your choice before hand, and if you must choose A, then you lack the free will to choose B. Do you really think that you choose your beliefs? I mean, can you choose to un-believe something?Could you choose to believe that, say, the world is flat? Or the sky is green? Can you really say that you can choose to believe something?

Because it prevents them from choosing otherwise.

I don't think you are understanding what I am typing. Then he didn't know that she was going to be pissed. He just thought that she was. That's hardly a prophesy, as per the scope of this thread. No, you might just not get paid. You do not know that you will get paid. If you did know, then it would be impossible for you to not get paid. This impossibility is what erases free will. I was talking about choosing a belief.When you believe something, you can't really just decide that you don't. Also, if you don't believe something, then you can't just decide that you do.For example, if I walked up to you and slapped you across the face, could you just decide to choose to believe that it didn't happen? While your face is red and hurting?Do you believe in the Invisible Pink Unicorn? Can you just decide that tomorrow you will believe in it?But that is all an aside.The point is that logically free will and predestination cannot coexist.If you have free will then your choice cannot be known. If your choice is absolutely known, then you don't have free will.

If god knows the choice you will make, then you CANNOT choose otherwise. You have to go with the one that god knows you will choose otherwise god would be wrong.

Not just any knowledge. It has to be future knowledge.If it is absolutely known which choice you will make in the future, then you cannot do something other than that choice for if you did, then it was not absolutely know which choice you would make. It doesn't work for the past. It has to be in the future. The problem is that someone cannot have foreknowledge of your choice. If they do have the foreknowledge, then how can you choose something that they didn't foreknow?If you can't, then you really don't have a choice.

Thanks, Rush But the line is:

quote:

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If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice

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We're cross-posting. Please reply to Message 25.

When the event is in the future and the knowledge is absolute, the event must happen. But if you make a different choice than the one they "knew" you were going to make, then they really didn't "know" your choice.If you have free will, then predetermination is logically impossible. False. Past events are done and cannot change. Future events presumably have multiple possiblities. If only one possiblity can happen, then there really wasn't multiple ones. So you don't believe in predetermination then. Its really no big deal. No, I am asking how can your choice be different from their foreknowledge...

No its not. The modal fallacy is the error of treating modal conditionals as if the modality applies only to the consequent of the conditional.That is not what I am doing. You're the one misunderstanding. Stop changing what I am saying and maybe you'll get it. I'm saying that you cannot choose a different choice than the one that they have foreknowledge of. You haven't made the choice yet so you're not changing your choice. You are changing what they have foresaw you doing and then that makes their foreknowledge false. However, if their forknowledge is absolutely accurate, then you do not have the ability to change the decision that you have not made yet. You would have no free will.

Don't people us The Book of Revelation to support the snake being Satan?Something about Satan being describes as a snake, or something? I'm going from memory here Anyways, I don't think you can say that there's none whatsoever.Well, I guess you could maintain that if you just deny it as support.