Free will, or is it?

if you see storm clouds, you know a storm is on the horizen.given mans sharing of information, and God knowing how all things work, he can predict the possibilities of our technologies by our desires as a whole. because we choose to satisfy the majority because doing so brings us wealth.if enough carbon is released into the atmosphere, will our sky become a constant cloud like the gaseous planets? we ar destroying the balance of the atmosphere, but we don't know what its going to do when "enough" is there to trap more than we are used too. but God does. he knows how all things work.if i birth a child, and set rules, and the child breaks them. what should i do? if i tell the child, do not go near the stairs, you could fall and die, and the child sneaks and gets past my counter measures, and falls and is hurt severely, i can put up better counter measures, but the child will grow. and the next problem is drugs., and i tell my child to avoid them. but he does them anyways, and overdoses and dies; am i to blame? i can lead a horse to water, but i cant make it drink.these analogies are just to support the truth of what free will is. you do have a choice. and the laws are set, because God knows what we don't. like the child didn't understand the true danger of the stairs. but we knew it, and hoped pour child would not go against our wishes. like drugs. we knew it. but the child did not believe. and went too far.God knows the dangers we do not. he knows the reasons for the laws he set. we cant understand them "yet". but knowing that God is, is the start. the choice...is ours.

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keep your mind from this way of enquiry, for never will you show that not-being is
~parmenides

Because it prevents them from choosing otherwise.

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But if it was already known by god, you only think you chose freely. The reality is you didn't have a choice.

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This is just a bald assertion.Is it possible to have knowledge of someone's freely chosen choice? The answer is of course yes. This is all the foreknowledge entails.It's not it is In other words, God knows the choice you will make, even though you could have chosen otherwise.

I don't think you are understanding what I am typing. Then he didn't know that she was going to be pissed. He just thought that she was. That's hardly a prophesy, as per the scope of this thread. No, you might just not get paid. You do not know that you will get paid. If you did know, then it would be impossible for you to not get paid. This impossibility is what erases free will. I was talking about choosing a belief.When you believe something, you can't really just decide that you don't. Also, if you don't believe something, then you can't just decide that you do.For example, if I walked up to you and slapped you across the face, could you just decide to choose to believe that it didn't happen? While your face is red and hurting?Do you believe in the Invisible Pink Unicorn? Can you just decide that tomorrow you will believe in it?But that is all an aside.The point is that logically free will and predestination cannot coexist.If you have free will then your choice cannot be known. If your choice is absolutely known, then you don't have free will.

But because god can see both the start and end of time - everything we do is the result of how god created the universe, the complexity of measuring all of the variables is not beyond him.So there is no freewill, it's a clockwork universe - everthing from the fall to the end is all pre-programmed.

If god knows the choice you will make, then you CANNOT choose otherwise. You have to go with the one that god knows you will choose otherwise god would be wrong.

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Because it prevents them from choosing otherwise.

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This may be quite obvious to you, but it doesn't logically follow. If knowledge of a choice means you had no choice then you have never made any choices due to your knowledge of the past.Imagine watching your past on video tape. Just because you know what the agent (you) in the film will do doesn't mean the agent didn't choose what to do. I see no obvious contradiction or inconsistencies in the previous statements.

very well. but if you beleive you have no choice, you have still made a choice.

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keep your mind from this way of enquiry, for never will you show that not-being is
~parmenides

If god knows the choice you will make, then you will make that choice. You have to go with the one that god knows you will choose otherwise you will make a different choice than the one you choose(which is contradictory).

Not just any knowledge. It has to be future knowledge.If it is absolutely known which choice you will make in the future, then you cannot do something other than that choice for if you did, then it was not absolutely know which choice you would make. It doesn't work for the past. It has to be in the future. The problem is that someone cannot have foreknowledge of your choice. If they do have the foreknowledge, then how can you choose something that they didn't foreknow?If you can't, then you really don't have a choice.

Thanks, Rush But the line is:

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If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice

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We're cross-posting. Please reply to Message 25.

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Not just any knowledge. It has to be future knowledge.

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Knowledge is knowledge is knowledge. How can knowledge of an event have a causual influence on that event?

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If it is absolutely known which choice you will make in the future, then you cannot do something other than that choice for if you did, then it was not absolutely know which choice you would make.

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If someone knows which choice you will make in the future and you make a different choice, then you will choose a different choice than the one you will choose.That doesn't make any sense.

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It doesn't work for the past. It has to be in the future.

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Just as knowledge of past events has no influence on past events, so it is with foreknowledge. Atleast, I don't how knowledge of an event can causally have an effect on it.

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The problem is that someone cannot have foreknowledge of your choice. If they do have the foreknowledge, then how can you choose something that they didn't foreknow?

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Assuming they have foreknowledge, you are essentially asking how you can choose something else than what you will choose. It doesn't make sense.Edited by humoshi, : No reason given.Edited by humoshi, : missing words and what no

When the event is in the future and the knowledge is absolute, the event must happen. But if you make a different choice than the one they "knew" you were going to make, then they really didn't "know" your choice.If you have free will, then predetermination is logically impossible. False. Past events are done and cannot change. Future events presumably have multiple possiblities. If only one possiblity can happen, then there really wasn't multiple ones. So you don't believe in predetermination then. Its really no big deal. No, I am asking how can your choice be different from their foreknowledge...

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When the event is in the future and the knowledge is absolute, the event must happen.

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This is an example of the modal fallacy.It should read:

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No, I am asking how can your choice be different from their foreknowledge...

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This is the crux of the situation and the part I don't think you are understanding.1. If someone has true foreknowledge, then they know what choice you will make2. You cannot choice a different choice than the choice you make, i.e, saying "I will choose a different choice than the choice I will make" doesn't make sense).