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Author Topic:   Women In 1 Corinthians
nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 91 of 106 (455590)
02-12-2008 11:13 PM
Reply to: Message 90 by Creationista
02-12-2008 7:18 PM


Re: where is your creativity?
Whatever.
If you can't even manage something as mild as, "I don't like what you wrote about women." in response to jonfolton, then I guess you can be counted as one who doesn't think it is important to contradict him directly.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 90 by Creationista, posted 02-12-2008 7:18 PM Creationista has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 92 by Creationista, posted 02-13-2008 9:53 AM nator has replied

  
Creationista
Inactive Junior Member


Message 92 of 106 (455648)
02-13-2008 9:53 AM
Reply to: Message 91 by nator
02-12-2008 11:13 PM


Re: where is your creativity?
That is also your opinion.
It is not sufficient to say "I don't like". It's not strong enough.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 91 by nator, posted 02-12-2008 11:13 PM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 93 by nator, posted 02-13-2008 10:02 AM Creationista has replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 93 of 106 (455649)
02-13-2008 10:02 AM
Reply to: Message 92 by Creationista
02-13-2008 9:53 AM


Re: where is your creativity?
quote:
It is not sufficient to say "I don't like". It's not strong enough.
OK, how about something like:
"What you sed about women is the worst thing I've ever heard."
The point is, you refuse to confront him directly.
Why is that?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 92 by Creationista, posted 02-13-2008 9:53 AM Creationista has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 94 by Creationista, posted 02-13-2008 10:08 AM nator has replied

  
Creationista
Inactive Junior Member


Message 94 of 106 (455651)
02-13-2008 10:08 AM
Reply to: Message 93 by nator
02-13-2008 10:02 AM


Re: where is your creativity?
Clearly it's for whatever reason you have invented in your head. Let's just go with that, because nothing I could say would convince you otherwise.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 93 by nator, posted 02-13-2008 10:02 AM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 97 by nator, posted 02-13-2008 11:09 AM Creationista has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 95 of 106 (455659)
02-13-2008 10:31 AM
Reply to: Message 86 by nator
02-12-2008 6:19 PM


All morality is based upon the social requirements of people living together in groups.
So its relative then.
How can you use your group's relative morals to criticize another group's relative morals?
Without some authority, you're just expressing your opinion.
How is your opinion any more valid than theirs?
For example, if a group wants women to STFU in church, how can you use your groups social requirements to say that their social requirements are wrong?

All morality is based upon the social requirements of people living together in groups.
Or are you saying that it is based on one set of social requirements that all people living together in groups require?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 86 by nator, posted 02-12-2008 6:19 PM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 96 by nator, posted 02-13-2008 10:58 AM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 96 of 106 (455668)
02-13-2008 10:58 AM
Reply to: Message 95 by New Cat's Eye
02-13-2008 10:31 AM


All morality is based upon the social requirements of people living together in groups.
quote:
So its relative then.
Yes.
quote:
How can you use your group's relative morals to criticize another group's relative morals?
Because I believe that my morality leads to a better, freer, more humane society.
quote:
Without some authority, you're just expressing your opinion.
Well, we can look at history and the societal results of oppression of women (or any group) as an authority.
Would you say that life was better for women when they were considered chattel? Or when they weren't allowed to own property? Or vote? Or be paid as well as a man for doing the same or better work? Or before people even recognized the term "marital rape" as anything other than an oxymoron, since a husband's supreme right to sexual access to his wife's body was considered inviolate?
quote:
For example, if a group wants women to STFU in church, how can you use your groups social requirements to say that their social requirements are wrong?
It is a matter of philosophy, to be sure, to determine if a freer, more egalitarian society or a more oppressive, hierarchical society leads to greater peace, contentment, and prosperity for all, not just those with certain sexual organs or of certain families or of certain castes.
I think that history has some lessons for us there.
quote:
Or are you saying that it is based on one set of social requirements that all people living together in groups require?
No. All people living together in groups require some social rules to function as a society.
I think there have been plenty of examples over the millenia of various social contracts that we can look at an judge their relative effectiveness and ability to bring justice, peace and prosperity to as many people as possible.
Strict gender roles and oppression leads to discontent and revolution.
Edited by nator, : No reason given.
Edited by nator, : No reason given.
Edited by nator, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 95 by New Cat's Eye, posted 02-13-2008 10:31 AM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 98 by New Cat's Eye, posted 02-13-2008 11:28 AM nator has replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 97 of 106 (455669)
02-13-2008 11:09 AM
Reply to: Message 94 by Creationista
02-13-2008 10:08 AM


Re: where is your creativity?
quote:
Clearly it's for whatever reason you have invented in your head.
Why would I ask if I didn't want to know your reason?
quote:
Let's just go with that, because nothing I could say would convince you otherwise.
So you are a mind reader now, and already know that I can't be convinced?
I love how you don't answer the question and then blame me for it on the basis of something you can't possibly know.
Come on, now.
Why won't you directly confront him?
I am asking becasue I want to know why.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 94 by Creationista, posted 02-13-2008 10:08 AM Creationista has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 99 by Creationista, posted 02-13-2008 12:01 PM nator has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 98 of 106 (455675)
02-13-2008 11:28 AM
Reply to: Message 96 by nator
02-13-2008 10:58 AM


quote:
How can you use your group's relative morals to criticize another group's relative morals?
Because I believe that my morality leads to a better, freer, more humane society.
That's just circular reasoning.
You are also assuming that being freer and more humane is better.
Another group could believe that thier morality is better and that being free and humane doesn't matter.
For them, your morality is worthless.
How can you criticize their morality?
Well, we can look at history and the societal results of oppression of women (or any group) as an authority.
That's a good point. We could certainly use history as a gague for which group's moralities are the best. But we'd have to qualify what determines betterness.
How do we determine if Roman, Egyptian, or American morality is the best one?
It is a matter of philosophy, to be sure, to determine if a freer, more egalitarian society or a more oppressive, hierarchical society leads to greater peace, contentment, and prosperity for all, not just those with certain sexual organs or of certain families or of certain castes.
This assumes that greater peace, contentment, and prosperity for all is a good thing. Another group might not.
I think there have been plenty of examples over the millenia of various social contracts that we can look at an judge their relative effectiveness and ability to bring justice, peace and prosperity to as many people as possible.
More circular reasoning, you're just assuming that your group's morality is the best one and then concluding the same.
Bringing justice, peace and prosperity to as many people as possible might not be important to another group.
How do we qualify the betterness of a group's morality in order to compare multiple ones to determine which is the best morality?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 96 by nator, posted 02-13-2008 10:58 AM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 100 by nator, posted 02-13-2008 12:31 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
Creationista
Inactive Junior Member


Message 99 of 106 (455682)
02-13-2008 12:01 PM
Reply to: Message 97 by nator
02-13-2008 11:09 AM


Re: where is your creativity?
Because it isn't possible to adequately confront him, and he will pay for his crimes eventually. It's a waste of time to try to change someone so sure of his own superiority. Meanwhile, it was someone else who decided to make a fuss about the whole thing and degrade the rest of us because of one individuals poor choice of opinion. As such, it is that individual who is most in need of correction. Further, I think it is that individual who might best respond to it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 97 by nator, posted 02-13-2008 11:09 AM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 101 by nator, posted 02-13-2008 12:36 PM Creationista has replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 100 of 106 (455694)
02-13-2008 12:31 PM
Reply to: Message 98 by New Cat's Eye
02-13-2008 11:28 AM


quote:
That's just circular reasoning.
No, it isn't.
quote:
You are also assuming that being freer and more humane is better.
I am not assuming that it is.
I look to history and it shows me that it is.
quote:
Another group could believe that thier morality is better and that being free and humane doesn't matter.
For them, your morality is worthless.
How can you criticize their morality?
From a historical and philosophical persoective, I can easily do so.
They don't have to accept my premise that freedom and humane treatment of others is better, but the point is, my morality is based upon a relatively rational basis.
Saying "X is moral because we believe God said it is moral" is a pretty lame reason for morality.
I would then ask, if you believe that your God declared it moral to rape and murder and commit genocide, a la Old testament, does that make rape and murder and genocide moral?
Under their morality, it does.
quote:
This assumes that greater peace, contentment, and prosperity for all is a good thing. Another group might not.
True.
Of course, se are rather evolved to be social animals and we also evolved to seek pleasure and avoid pain. Stress over long time periods does bad things to our bodies, even causing us to abort pregnancies and die prematurely. I think we are rather biologically driven to want to live peacefully and prosperously.
Greed and disdain for those who are considered "other" is a human characteristic, but as what people consider "the tribe" comes to encompass more and more of the entire population of the planet, the more it seems to make sense to "do unto others as you would have them do unto you."
In other words, Jesus was right when he urged all of us to treat each other the way we would wish to be treated.
That seems to be part of what makes us human.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 98 by New Cat's Eye, posted 02-13-2008 11:28 AM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 102 by New Cat's Eye, posted 02-13-2008 12:56 PM nator has not replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 101 of 106 (455696)
02-13-2008 12:36 PM
Reply to: Message 99 by Creationista
02-13-2008 12:01 PM


Re: where is your creativity?
quote:
Because it isn't possible to adequately confront him, and he will pay for his crimes eventually. It's a waste of time to try to change someone so sure of his own superiority.
I disagree.
Remember, to confront him is not just an attempt to change or enlighten him. I agree that he is probably a hopeless case. To address his sexism is also a declaration to everyone else reading, as a Christian, that you do not condone his position.
Your silence translates as tacit approval.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 99 by Creationista, posted 02-13-2008 12:01 PM Creationista has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 103 by New Cat's Eye, posted 02-13-2008 12:59 PM nator has replied
 Message 104 by Creationista, posted 02-13-2008 1:05 PM nator has not replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 102 of 106 (455701)
02-13-2008 12:56 PM
Reply to: Message 100 by nator
02-13-2008 12:31 PM


quote:
You are also assuming that being freer and more humane is better.
I am not assuming that it is.
I look to history and it shows me that it is.
I'm not so sure it can. How do you determine betterness?
They don't have to accept my premise that freedom and humane treatment of others is better, but the point is, my morality is based upon a relatively rational basis.
Saying "X is moral because we believe God said it is moral" is a pretty lame reason for morality.
But another morality that is based on a rational basis could come to a differenct conclusion about what is better.
I think we are rather biologically driven to want to live peacefully and prosperously.
But peace and prosperity can coexist with oppression.
If I'm understanding you, you're saying that you can look at history and determine which group's moralities lead to more peace and prosperity, label that as better, and then say that those moralities are better and use that to criticize the moralities of others.
Your criticism remains circular.
Let me hash it out:
quote:
I'm not sure how one Atheist criticizes the theology of another Atheist. I thought you guys didn't have any theology.
nator writes:
We have morality and ethics.
quote:
based on what?
nator writes:
All morality is based upon the social requirements of people living together in groups.
quote:
How can one relative morality criticize another?
You say that it can by looking at history and determining which has been better. But that assessment of betterness is relative, itself, and does not remove the relativity that makes the criticism invalid.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 100 by nator, posted 02-13-2008 12:31 PM nator has not replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 103 of 106 (455702)
02-13-2008 12:59 PM
Reply to: Message 101 by nator
02-13-2008 12:36 PM


Re: where is your creativity?
Your silence translates as tacit approval.
Only if you want it too. Its bullshit.
There are plenty of reasons to not reply and for you to assume tacit approval just exposes your bigotry to christians.
To address his sexism is also a declaration to everyone else reading, as a Christian, that you do not condone his position.
But the default position is not condoning every post that you don't reply too.
You choose to read it that way to feed your bigotry. And that makes you a hypocrite.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 101 by nator, posted 02-13-2008 12:36 PM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 105 by nator, posted 02-13-2008 3:42 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
Creationista
Inactive Junior Member


Message 104 of 106 (455703)
02-13-2008 1:05 PM
Reply to: Message 101 by nator
02-13-2008 12:36 PM


Re: where is your creativity?
"Remember, to confront him is not just an attempt to change or enlighten him. I agree that he is probably a hopeless case. To address his sexism is also a declaration to everyone else reading, as a Christian, that you do not condone his position.
Your silence translates as tacit approval."
Only because you choose to interpret it that way. I don't know about you, but I have a job and a household and I have much more important things to do than run around on every site on the internet and denouncing every single uneducated comment some Christian makes. The only person responsible for his comments is his own self.
Further, I'd hardly call this last 10 posts "silence".

This message is a reply to:
 Message 101 by nator, posted 02-13-2008 12:36 PM nator has not replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 105 of 106 (455737)
02-13-2008 3:42 PM
Reply to: Message 103 by New Cat's Eye
02-13-2008 12:59 PM


Re: where is your creativity?
Well, do you agree with his view of women, or not?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 103 by New Cat's Eye, posted 02-13-2008 12:59 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 106 by New Cat's Eye, posted 02-13-2008 4:13 PM nator has not replied

  
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