Free will, or is it?

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i believe that God knows what God knows, and no man can know what God truly does or does not know.

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i also believe that if you choose to serve God, truly. then God may use his servants for his will, and not the will of the man or the individual. and those are the "works" professed of in the bible. not mans, but Gods will by men who truly serve him.

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I agree. Good way of putting it.

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Iesous
Christos
H
Theos
H
Uios
SoterJesus Christ, Son of God, Savior.

We are enslaved to sin. It's our choice to sin, but Satan puts so much emphasis on "sin now and reap the rewards now" that we often choose that option over God's "work hard at doing right now, reap much greater rewards later." So, we're a slave to human nature, not to God.

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Iesous
Christos
H
Theos
H
Uios
SoterJesus Christ, Son of God, Savior.

Sorry Ichthus, I should have been clearer. We (Christians) are not enslaved to sin - we (the lost, whose perspective I was assuming) are.I haven't thought alot about the Christian and free will but suspect the situation to be that free-will is restored to us on regeneration.I'd agree that the fight is between satans lies and God's truths. And that we (Christians) can chose which ones to adhere to at any given moment.Edited by iano, : No reason given.

to put it simply:either God is, or IS NOT.no in between.the choice in what you believe, and walk in faith in.but every step you take is faith regardless, the question is, in what?it is good to question the truth of existing. because a lot more rides on it than this simple apparently useless life we live now. where mankind only destroys or bends the natural order to its will, and to the destruction of the natural order.ask the question. but what you choose to believe having asked it, is your choice.

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keep your mind from this way of enquiry, for never will you show that not-being is
~parmenides

Hi iano, enslaved, yes but enslaved to what? Satan because your ancestor sold you into slavery. John 8:34-36dead, yes but how? Dead in trespasses and sins separated from God. Eph. 2:1blind, yes but blind to what? Blind to the truth. Matt. 23:24-26 I need a scripture for that.I know you can not obtain salvation by physical works. Eph. 2:8-10. Here we have asking God for that free pardon. Since this would probably be off topic why not e-mail me and tell me about this God of yours I would like to hear of Him/Her/It.God Bless,

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"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

Intrinsic to the idea of free is the notion that the will is equipped to chose in various directions. A free will unequipped to chose is like a car which is said to be free to drive - but which lacks a battery, whose tyres are flat and whose petrol tank is empty. The scripture you provide are but three of many examples which illustrate a free will stripped of essential componants.-The free will you suggest exists is supposed to be able to freely chose whilst being enslaved to the will of satan. The whole world lies under the sway and control and influence and power of the wicked one.This free will is also described as being enslaved to sin. Enslavement is a very strong word and can be likened that which happens when someone becomes addicted to something. To talk of junkies having free will is to seriously undermine common notions of what free will involves.A request is made of free will that it chose (freely) for God when scripture says it is separated from God, distant from God, at emnity with God, dead to God. One doesn't freely chose to go over to the side of one deemed an enemy. Not without very good reason.I cannot think of a more stark way of illustrating the condition of fallen mans will then through the use of the word "blind". Yet you are insisting that the will which is blind to truth should freely chose for truth? You can't obtain it through thought-works either. Let's face it, if you can sin in thought (eg: lust) as well as deed then thought can be considered as much a work as a deed is. However, the central way in which mans contribution is excluded is by continuing on as above.Below we have the mind described as death. Not just fond of looking in that direction. Not just inclined in that way. But death itself. Next up we have the mind controlled by the sinful nature - a nature being the seat of will. "Controlled by" is the same thing as "enslaved by". There can be no talk of free willed contribution when sin is in the driving seat.It is interesting to note that the sinful mind cannot submit to God's laws (because Sin is antagonised into action by God's laws. Which will take a man in only one direction ....into sin)Yet God commands men everywhere to repent. Repenting being turning away from sin. Something a mans nature can only do the opposition of. I'm at a loss as to how the poor creature below could be expected to respond free-willing to the things of God: the gospel, the truth, the power, the majesty. When all he see's is foolishness. -
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-Regarding asking for pardons. I don't think that's what it says. I call upon (rely upon, point towards, depend upon, summon forth) the name of the Lord for my salvation and nothing else. Scripture tells me that because I do so I will be saved. But the reason I call upon the name of the Lord in this way is because I am born again. Because my eyes have been opened I see that it is Christ who I need to place my trust in.And so I do.Calling on the name of the Lord is a consequence of having been saved. Not a cause of being saved. The issue in question is on topic. It had to do with how a person believes anything. The normal way in which a person believes in things is a result of their responsing to a reason/evidence supporting a belief. People don't believe in a vaccuumIn the case of God - the most important belief issue of all - the standard of reason/evidence would have to be of the very highest calibre in order that a persons belief be genuine and solid.If you're asking folk to take a blind leap of belief (in the face of insufficient evidence for that belief) then it is reasonable to suppose a flurry of questions (as to why your "god" and not a myriad of equally unevidenced gods?) to follow.There is no rational answer to that question - I suggest.I'm asking what is reasonable and rational about a God who (you are arguing) requests folk to believe in something so stupendous as his existance and provision for salvation, when the evidence is (from their perspective) paltry at best. This especially in the light of that self-same God going to the trouble of describing these self-same folk in the ways covered above.Ways which indicate they have anything but free will. Edited by iano, : No reason given.Edited by iano, : No reason given.Edited by iano, : No reason given.

Hi iano, Did you exercise your free will and make a choice to be born again or did you get that some other way? I have been told several times that is my problem I think too much.Examine any scripture in context to get the meaning. Paul is writing about the children of Israel having exercised their free will and chosen to make their own rules instead of submitting to Gods rules.Paul is talking to lost people who know not God, not born again people.He then states several things a person does in exercising his free will.He mentions:
Confessing with the mouth.
Believing with your heart. (to the people of that day heart was the seat of affection)
Those who believe on him will not be ashamed.
He said there is no difference in peoples.
Then he said whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
He further states how can they call on him in whom they have not believed. That is impossible.
He then states how can they believe in Him of whom they have not heard. That is impossible.
Finally he says how shall they hear without a preacher.
That is what I do. I tell people about Jesus.iano I feel for people who have been raised without the knowledge of God imparted to them by their parents. There is nothing I can do about that I wish I could. I can only tell them what God says in His Word. If they choose to accept the Word fine. If they choose not to accept the Word I can do nothing about that. God will do nothing to make them believe.God gave man free will so man could choose to believe in Him, love Him, and serve Him just because He is God.He gave parents the responsibility of teaching their children.If the parents exercise their free will and do not choose God then the children are at a big disadvantage.If these children grow up and exercise their free will not to choose God what chance do their children have.That is the reason there are so many today who do not believe in God. They have seen no evidence for a God in the lives of their parents, grand parents and great grand parents.They all chose to exercise their free will and seek to find their own way.Sometimes I want to exercise my free will after 45 years of telling people about Jesus who will not listen and just go fishing.But there is one more person somewhere that will listen. So I exercise my free will and keep searching for that person.You see free will works in many ways.God Bless,

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"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

Like I say, I had no free will to exercise.Rather God worked to convince me of my need for him - countering my sinful natures tendency to work only in the direction of rejecting this effort of Gods.Finally cornered by compelling evidence for my need of God, I believed the argument that God had brought about (due to it being compelling). Like Abraham, I believed God and God credited that belief as righteousnessNo free will required. Paul hasn't said a thing about exercising free will. That the Israelites are producing the goods that sinful natures produce only underlines sinful nature at work. Worshipping false gods is what sinful natures do. Trying to achieve own righteousness is what sinful natures do.A cat's nature is to catch mice. If a cat dumps a mouse on the mat you don't say it's acted freewillingly. You say it's acted according to it's nature. Sin is the product of a sinful nature. Not of a free willed one. A free willed nature could produce some righteousness of its own Paul makes my earlier point. He argues from rationality. You call on the name of the Lord after you have believed in him. And before you believe in him you must somehow be convinced he exists and that you need him. Evidence is required the whole way down the line.You need to begin dealing with the irrationality of requesting that people believe something for which they have not the evidence. Whether lost people have free will at all is the question. Not that they are assumed to have it and.... And so do I. As I understand it, it is the gospel that saves a person not my or your doctrine. Insofar as our message contains elements of the gospel then God can use it. Insofar that it doesn't God will dispense with it. I wouldn't worry too much about people who have never heard nor ever will hear of the gospel. Either it was God's intention that they never would. Or God has other ways of saving a person through Christ. I think of all the people who lived before Christ yet who were saved without ever having heard of ChristWe aren't really at loggerheads as much as you might think. I do think God sets up a choice of sorts for the lost. And that salvation is open to everyone who ever lived. It just doesn't require free will to enable that - for the reasons that free will is a) contra-indicated in scripture and b) functionally irrational You want to stop fishing and just go fishing. No wonder you're 45 years at it! If I don't see you in the meantime be sure to look me up in the new heavens and earthEdited by iano, : No reason given.

this song is a perfect discription of your free will. i pray you understand its true context as you read it.If I Were A Carpenter"[Written by Tim Hardin]If I were a carpenter
And you were a lady,
Would you marry me anyway?
Would you have my baby?If a tinker were my trade
would you still find me,
Carrying the pots I made,
Following behind me.Save my love through loneliness,
Save my love for sorrow,
I'm given you my onliness,
Come give your tomorrow.If I worked my hands in wood,
Would you still love me?
Answer me babe, "Yes I would,
I'll put you above me."If I were a miller
at a mill wheel grinding,
would you miss your color box,
and your soft shoe shining?If I were a carpenter
and you were a lady,
Would you marry me anyway?
Would you have my baby?
Would you marry anyway?
Would you have my baby?

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keep your mind from this way of enquiry, for never will you show that not-being is
~parmenides

It is a good description of my free will. But it doesn't say much about free will as it pertains to the lost. Who I contend have not a free will.

if you choose to not decide, you still have made a choice.

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keep your mind from this way of enquiry, for never will you show that not-being is
~parmenides

Several of you here are saying or at least implying that you can consciously CHOOSE to believe things. If so, perhaps one of you can help me. I have never been able to consciously CHOOSE any of the beliefs that I have and I would like to be able to do that - for example to effect a belief that it is possible for me to become a more compassionate person. Since you seem to be saying that you can consciously CHOOSE to believe things, I wonder if you might explain how you do it. What do you do at the last moment to instantly change your one state of belief to another? What is it that you do that would allow you to say, “OK, at this moment I have a lack of belief that ”x’ exists or is true, but I CHOOSE to believe that ”x’ exists or is true and now instantly at this new moment I do believe that ”x’ exists or is true?Maybe you could use something like leprechauns to demonstrate your technique. According to the Encyclopedia Britannica, a leprechaun is “a fairy peculiar to Ireland, who appeared in the form of an old man of minute stature, wearing a cocked hat and a leather apron.” So, assuming that you don’t already have a belief in them, how about right now, while you are reading this, CHOOSE to believe - be convinced without a doubt - that they exist. Now that you believe in leprechauns, my question is, how did you do it? How did you make the instantaneous transition from lack of belief to belief?

I beg to differ. So does James (James 2:14, 17-18, 20-22, 24-26): From my interpretation, if works are required to make your faith perfect, and if works can justify you, you can, through your works, contribute in some "way, shape or form" to your own salvation. If the Book of Mormon were permissible as scriptural proof, I would provide even clearer references, but this one suffices.I'm not sure my views here will be appreciated much, because I am an evolutionist and a Mormon, but I will provide them anyway. My religion does not believe in a manipulative God: we believe that, by and large, God awaits our choice to request His aid before rendering it. However, He is seen as supporting us in times when we are attempting to do His will, but are falling short (which is, believe it or not, quite common).Thus, we believe in total and absolute (and inate) free will of mankind. If we choose to do what God wants us to do, He will support us and improve upon our efforts. When not following God, or in making choices that do not directly involve our salvation (such as choosing a career, or choosing what color of tie to wear to church), we are on our own.This is pure free will, with a little boost when we need it.We believe that, like man, God is also bound by laws (albeit different laws), and that (as in Bruce Almighty) God cannot meddle with an individual's free will. We believe that Satan was cast out of Heaven because he wanted to take our free will in a vain attempt to save us all from ourselves, when he knew that this was physically impossible.Thus, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints sees free will as the most important attribute of the human race (though it does not comment on the possibility that other creatures do or do not have this same attribute). Also, giving our free will ("agency" is the term we like) to God (by choosing to serve Him) is the only true gift that we can give Him, because it is the only gift that He can't take away from us on His own.

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Signed,
Nobody Important (just Bluejay)

There is an interesting belief known as Open Theism. Open Theism basically says that God has chosen to allow human decisions to be a part of the eventual future reality. In essence, we become the decisions that we make. The onus is on us to actualize our future rather than on God to have predetermined an unchangeable future.

Indeed. Choosing to make no decision is choosing to remain travelling on the current heading. Or at a halt - if that is your current "heading".However, the issue of decision need not arise in order that you remain travelling a particular heading (which includes remaining at a stopped position). Doing absolutely nothing at all, that is, not choosing in any way, will achieve the same result.In other words: objects travelling in a straight line will continue doing so unless acted upon by someone or others choice. No choice is required in order for the object to continue travelling in a straight line