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Author Topic:   Free will, or is it?
tesla
Member (Idle past 1593 days)
Posts: 1199
Joined: 12-22-2007


Message 128 of 163 (456479)
02-18-2008 9:33 AM
Reply to: Message 126 by iano
02-18-2008 9:20 AM


Re: Jerusalem, Jerusalem
I agree that it is a condition and not an act of will that maintains a person on this path. Gods desire than none perish is the condition that does that for fallen men. Nor is there any exercise of the will required to maintain a person on the path to the point of salvation. God’s effort does that for them - it is he who calls and draws all towards salvation.
there are two paths, and those dead in sin are only dead by their choice, they love the evil they are in, and God would condemn the evil's, so they hide from the truth. and don't even want to tempt examining it because of fear of condemnation.
Luke 13:34 Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you kill the prophets and stone to death those sent to you! How often I wanted to gather your children together the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings! But you were not willing!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Not willing = willed it not. Jesus will gather all except those who will it not.
there are those who call themselves Christians, but in truth are not. and in the last day, when they stand before God and say : have i not believed? i went to church! i chose not to sleep with that whore and i reaaaallly wanted to! why cannot i enter into the kingdom of heaven!!?
they are not wearing the proper clothes. they want to believe but believe the way they want to, and not obey God's commandments because they do not accept it in their hearts. but if in your heart and mind you accept the truth, then because of your love and fear of God, you will obey him within all your abilities.
because you believe in God does not mean he serves you. it means you recognize and serve him. his will. his laws. his commandments. and seek his glory, not your own. and not try to do as Jesus has done, because you cannot do that. but to be thankful that God came and died for you, in the body of the man we call Jesus.
we do have choice. free will, even as God gave us the choice. man chooses selfishly, but God gave selflessly, so that we seeing that, would also give selflessly, but with wisdom also, because God is wise.
if you are sick, and take medicine to cure your illness, and your body rejects the medicine, your body made its choice, and you now have your choice: new medicine, or cut out the illness from your body, so that you might gain health. God gave the last medicine there was to have, and now those who reject it, have the final answer for their choice: be of God's body as they were born into it; or be rejected from it, having rejected him who they exist in.

keep your mind from this way of enquiry, for never will you show that not-being is
~parmenides

This message is a reply to:
 Message 126 by iano, posted 02-18-2008 9:20 AM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 131 by iano, posted 02-18-2008 9:55 AM tesla has replied

  
tesla
Member (Idle past 1593 days)
Posts: 1199
Joined: 12-22-2007


Message 130 of 163 (456481)
02-18-2008 9:44 AM
Reply to: Message 129 by rstrats
02-18-2008 9:36 AM


Re: Free will. As in problems with
if outside it is raining, and someone Say's to you: it is raining. and you reply: no its not, the weather said it wasn't going to rain until tomorrow. and they say: they were wrong..go look, it is raining.
and sitting there your watching a movie and say : well i don't believe it. maybe after this movie ill go check. and the movie ends and you check, and its still raining. you had believed the forecasters who said it would not rain, but after examination you saw they were wrong. what you believe then is your choice regardless of the truth, but unless you check for the truth, how will you know?
if your belief can change with new evidence that you find to be true, then if evidence is available , should you not look and See if what you do now believe is true or not?
what proof has lead you to your decision to believe what you now believe? you can shut your eyes, you can watch another movie, and not check outside to see if it is raining, but that don't mean it isn't truly raining. are you willing to go look and see?
if i came to your house, and proclaimed: everyone out of the house! there's a plane fixing to crash into it!!!
and you lock the door and say : your full of it man. is it worth the death of you and your family?
but if you walk outside and see a plane heading for your house , on fire, and missing a wing, will you not get you and your family and leave before it hits?
if someone Say's: this table is sturdy, and you say OK ill buy it, and get home and it crumbles, who is to blame? but if they Say it is sturdy, and you stand on it, and it does not crumble, and you jump on it, and it doesn't wiggle, then buy that table, because you have tested it, and it is solid.

keep your mind from this way of enquiry, for never will you show that not-being is
~parmenides

This message is a reply to:
 Message 129 by rstrats, posted 02-18-2008 9:36 AM rstrats has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 133 by rstrats, posted 02-18-2008 10:06 AM tesla has replied

  
tesla
Member (Idle past 1593 days)
Posts: 1199
Joined: 12-22-2007


Message 132 of 163 (456483)
02-18-2008 10:00 AM
Reply to: Message 131 by iano
02-18-2008 9:55 AM


Re: Jerusalem, Jerusalem
the death is on them because they live in the sin of the earthly fathers, and the knowledge of good and evil. with the knowledge, they have the choice to accept the evil or the good.
we are born into the day after Christ has come, and not before. the medicine is available to us. eat and drink the medicine and you will be saved, but do not eat and drink, and you will die.
to be born of water is to be a man, to be born of the spirit is to become the bride of God.
Edited by tesla, : capital C

keep your mind from this way of enquiry, for never will you show that not-being is
~parmenides

This message is a reply to:
 Message 131 by iano, posted 02-18-2008 9:55 AM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 135 by iano, posted 02-18-2008 10:15 AM tesla has replied

  
tesla
Member (Idle past 1593 days)
Posts: 1199
Joined: 12-22-2007


Message 134 of 163 (456487)
02-18-2008 10:15 AM
Reply to: Message 133 by rstrats
02-18-2008 10:06 AM


Re: Free will. As in problems with
tesla,
You’re missing the point. Your comments in your post #130 would indeed apply to the “prudent” part of my last post, but they don’t apply to the basic notion that beliefs can simply be consciously CHOSEN. If they can be, then evidence is not necessary. You can just CHOOSE to have them. Can you do that?
what is the choice you have? if you mean by your free will, that if you choose to believe the world is flat, because its all you can conclude with evidence, and so have no choice in the matter, then you believe it because no evidence gives you a choice to believe otherwise.
your heart and mind will reject what it does not understand, so also did my mind and heart reject what i could not understand. if you are content, and need no other evidence, and there is no danger in the belief you now hold because what else can you believe? but what you can understand? then you have your belief with no choice because of the evidence that is only available.
but if there is a danger in believing the world is flat, that the belief can kill you, then wouldn't that man start checking for the truth? and wasn't evidence discovered by observing a ship comes from the water and its mast was seen first at its coming?
because you have not seen other evidence, does not mean there is non available, with your life potentially on the line by what you have been told, should you not look for evidence?
you believe you have no choice but to believe what you can understand, so is that the truth. but also, you have a choice to examine the truth that you might know. and evidence is available for those who choose to look. based on the evidence, then you can believe what you examine to see is the truth. but if you choose not to look, that is your choice.

keep your mind from this way of enquiry, for never will you show that not-being is
~parmenides

This message is a reply to:
 Message 133 by rstrats, posted 02-18-2008 10:06 AM rstrats has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 137 by rstrats, posted 02-18-2008 10:45 AM tesla has replied

  
tesla
Member (Idle past 1593 days)
Posts: 1199
Joined: 12-22-2007


Message 136 of 163 (456489)
02-18-2008 10:24 AM
Reply to: Message 135 by iano
02-18-2008 10:15 AM


Re: Jerusalem, Jerusalem
in the garden, when the father of man disobeyed God. that was the first cause.
individually; ask God, i do not have the answer. but if you deny the body, the body will deny you. and reject you, and cast you into the waste.
for a being that IS of faith, doubt is poison. how then can doubt exist? i do not have the answer, and God can do what i cannot. why ask me at what point is a man forever dead? i do not know your hearts. but only what God makes known to me concerning you. if i have done any good, or said any truth concerning him, it is not my words i have said. i am no better than you. but only tell you what truth i am aware of.

keep your mind from this way of enquiry, for never will you show that not-being is
~parmenides

This message is a reply to:
 Message 135 by iano, posted 02-18-2008 10:15 AM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 138 by iano, posted 02-18-2008 10:55 AM tesla has replied

  
tesla
Member (Idle past 1593 days)
Posts: 1199
Joined: 12-22-2007


Message 139 of 163 (456493)
02-18-2008 10:56 AM
Reply to: Message 137 by rstrats
02-18-2008 10:45 AM


Re: Free will. As in problems with
There are three choices or options with regard to belief:
1. To believe that someone or something exists or that a certain proposition is true.
2. To believe that someone or something doesn’t exist or that a certain proposition isn’t true.
3. To have no belief either way.
re: “...with your life potentially on the line by what you have been told, should you not look for evidence?”
Again, that would fall under the “prudent” part of my comment. But if beliefs can be consciously CHOSEN, you do not HAVE to look for evidence.
do you believe because your heart will reject what you do not understand that you have no free will? are these three things the only power of choice you have ?
if your house is on fire, do you have the choice to extinguish the small flame, or run form the large flames? to call for help, or watch it burn?
a man can consciously choose to believe a weather sites forecast. there is his choice. and he acts in faith :
its going to be sunny tomorrow, so meet me at 7 am at the last job site, we will get much done today.
and by his faith in the caster, he started work, and a storm came, and not much was accomplished. was he a fool? or just misinformed?
what are you saying when you say you cannot make a conscious decision?
you consciously type to me at your keyboard, because you have faith in your fingers and the keyboard are real, you see it. thats a conscious effort of action based on belief of what you know to be true.
but on the topic of God, you believe its just a decision made because someone said so? or do you say: who can believe just because someone said so? but the power to believe and have faith is your choice in what you have faith in.
the better question i could answer for you is : how do you obtain true faith and have belief?
i misunderstand you? or do i answer you with an explanation?

keep your mind from this way of enquiry, for never will you show that not-being is
~parmenides

This message is a reply to:
 Message 137 by rstrats, posted 02-18-2008 10:45 AM rstrats has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 154 by rstrats, posted 02-19-2008 1:40 PM tesla has replied

  
tesla
Member (Idle past 1593 days)
Posts: 1199
Joined: 12-22-2007


Message 140 of 163 (456495)
02-18-2008 10:58 AM
Reply to: Message 138 by iano
02-18-2008 10:55 AM


Re: Jerusalem, Jerusalem
i told you what pertains to all, but individually, only God sees your heart.
what pertains to all pertains to the individual. but what the individual has accepted or not, God knows.

keep your mind from this way of enquiry, for never will you show that not-being is
~parmenides

This message is a reply to:
 Message 138 by iano, posted 02-18-2008 10:55 AM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 141 by iano, posted 02-18-2008 11:08 AM tesla has replied

  
tesla
Member (Idle past 1593 days)
Posts: 1199
Joined: 12-22-2007


Message 142 of 163 (456500)
02-18-2008 11:15 AM
Reply to: Message 141 by iano
02-18-2008 11:08 AM


Re: Jerusalem, Jerusalem
i see.
the people today have evidence before them that God IS.
under examination, they will make their choice.
the people of today have medicine supplied in the body of the true God, that they might not die in reality, but live in the body of God as God truly is. God is of faith, and with no faith, you cannot be a part of faith. so then did God come in Jesus, that we might know him and the truth of existing. that by understanding, the body will be healed of the poison of doubt.
the choice is made by the individual when they observe the evidence. they choose to ignore it, or to accept it. and then do you either choose to live or die by the truth or lie you choose to accept for yourself.

keep your mind from this way of enquiry, for never will you show that not-being is
~parmenides

This message is a reply to:
 Message 141 by iano, posted 02-18-2008 11:08 AM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 143 by iano, posted 02-18-2008 1:11 PM tesla has replied

  
tesla
Member (Idle past 1593 days)
Posts: 1199
Joined: 12-22-2007


Message 144 of 163 (456512)
02-18-2008 1:16 PM
Reply to: Message 143 by iano
02-18-2008 1:11 PM


Re: Jerusalem, Jerusalem
mankind caused the problem in the first sin. all mankind are dead because of it.
God gave us medicine, because he loved us, and did not wish for us to die. this means, although dead, you can now yet live, because of the medicine that is taken individually.
They also have a clatter of evidence that other gods are. And that no gods are.
so what is the truth? what i believe may not be what you choose to believe. but the truth is the truth.

keep your mind from this way of enquiry, for never will you show that not-being is
~parmenides

This message is a reply to:
 Message 143 by iano, posted 02-18-2008 1:11 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 145 by iano, posted 02-18-2008 1:35 PM tesla has replied

  
tesla
Member (Idle past 1593 days)
Posts: 1199
Joined: 12-22-2007


Message 146 of 163 (456516)
02-18-2008 2:21 PM
Reply to: Message 145 by iano
02-18-2008 1:35 PM


Re: Jerusalem, Jerusalem
The truth is that you're not particularily keen on addressing points made but prefer to touch base only very sporadically.
The point made was that biblically (at least), the dice is heavily loaded against a choice for God being made. Such a thing renders the notion of free-willed choice a bit of a nonsense.
then what more can i say? i have told you as i can. what choice you make concerning the truth, and what to believe, is yours to make.

keep your mind from this way of enquiry, for never will you show that not-being is
~parmenides

This message is a reply to:
 Message 145 by iano, posted 02-18-2008 1:35 PM iano has not replied

  
tesla
Member (Idle past 1593 days)
Posts: 1199
Joined: 12-22-2007


Message 155 of 163 (456665)
02-19-2008 1:52 PM
Reply to: Message 154 by rstrats
02-19-2008 1:40 PM


Re: Free will. As in problems with
I don’t think that he or you can do that. However, if you really ARE able to consciously CHOOSE to believe things, I would ask you to honor what I asked for in my message #117.
lets observe belief then, because free will is the will to observe, and belief is conclusions your mind and heart will accept by observations.
for instance: i believe in God. why? did i have a choice? by observation, there is no other conclusion. so i believe in my heart and mind, and have found no other data to change the conclusion, so it is true to me.
many do not believe in God. why? because they cannot accept it in mind and heart because they see no evidence before them.
so i supplied the evidence that led me to my conclusion. and many choose not to think it out, nor observe it, because they cannot rationalize it. they do not seek the truth of it, because they are unwilling to let go current conclusion.
its a human problem. reality is to the individual, what is acceptable to the individual. and the choice is to examine for the truth, or not. and if someone has believed all their life the world is flat, it would be very hard for them to accept any other conclusion. and dismiss anyone saying its round as fools because by their logic, if it was round, things on the bottom would fall off.
the free will is, examine, or not examine. because in the end, reality is what reality is. whether you want to believe the world is flat, or the world is round. is one person wrong? yes. can you change your belief with the free will to truly examine for the truth without dogmatism? yes. will you? thats up to you.

keep your mind from this way of enquiry, for never will you show that not-being is
~parmenides

This message is a reply to:
 Message 154 by rstrats, posted 02-19-2008 1:40 PM rstrats has not replied

  
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