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Author Topic:   Moral sense comes from the knowledge of good and evil. Would you give it up?
Greatest I am
Member (Idle past 663 days)
Posts: 1423
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 1 of 14 (456633)
02-19-2008 10:08 AM


Moral sense.

Moral sense comes from the knowledge of good and evil. Would you give it up?

The Church still prizes the Moral Sense as man's noblest asset today, although the Church knows God had a distinctly poor opinion of it and did what he could in his clumsy way to keep his happy Children of the Garden from acquiring it.

How many of us would give up our moral sense and return to animal ignorance or instincts that live without it.

I would not because it tells me why I follow God.

Would you prefer to be a sheep and follow God without knowing why?

Regards
DL


Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by iano, posted 02-20-2008 9:46 AM Greatest I am has responded
 Message 4 by LinearAq, posted 02-20-2008 10:38 AM Greatest I am has responded
 Message 11 by Hill Billy, posted 02-22-2008 7:36 PM Greatest I am has responded

    
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Message 2 of 14 (456809)
02-20-2008 8:59 AM


Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.

    
iano
Member (Idle past 224 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 3 of 14 (456817)
02-20-2008 9:46 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Greatest I am
02-19-2008 10:08 AM


GreatestIam writes:

The Church still prizes the Moral Sense as man's noblest asset today, although the Church knows God had a distinctly poor opinion of it and did what he could in his clumsy way to keep his happy Children of the Garden from acquiring it.

Knowledge of good and evil is another name for conscience. It is a tool used by God in the attempt to save men from his wrath. And a tool used to ensure that lost men can be justly exposed to the fury of Gods wrath. A double edged sword thus. It is not prized as the noblest asset for the simple reason of it's being double edged

If God had intended that his children not eat of the fruit then the simplest thing to do would have been to omit planting that tree there in the first place.

God, in providing Adam with this fruit of choice, also ensured that what a-moral Adam ingested would provide the means whereby all (of his now sinful) offspring would offered Adams choice.

Choose for God: yes of no.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Greatest I am, posted 02-19-2008 10:08 AM Greatest I am has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 6 by Greatest I am, posted 02-20-2008 11:21 AM iano has responded

  
LinearAq
Member (Idle past 2959 days)
Posts: 598
From: Pocomoke City, MD
Joined: 11-03-2004


Message 4 of 14 (456825)
02-20-2008 10:38 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Greatest I am
02-19-2008 10:08 AM


GIA writes:

although the Church knows God had a distinctly poor opinion of it and did what he could in his clumsy way to keep his happy Children of the Garden from acquiring it.


What church "knows" this? God did almost nothing to keep His happy Children of the Garden from acquiring it. All He had to do was not provide the option of eating from the tree by not providing the tree. You think God didn't know what was going to happen when He put the tree and man together? Besides, it was free will that allowed man to "sin" and eat from the tree. Adam and Eve just didn't know it was wrong to do so until after they ate.

Would you prefer to be a sheep and follow God without knowing why?

Don't you already do that?

Example: Do you pray?
Does praying change what God has intended to do?

God says you should pray, or ask for His assistance. Do you know why or do you just do it?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Greatest I am, posted 02-19-2008 10:08 AM Greatest I am has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 5 by iano, posted 02-20-2008 10:57 AM LinearAq has not yet responded
 Message 7 by Greatest I am, posted 02-20-2008 11:29 AM LinearAq has not yet responded

    
iano
Member (Idle past 224 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 5 of 14 (456832)
02-20-2008 10:57 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by LinearAq
02-20-2008 10:38 AM


Not a bad score
What church "knows" this?

7/10 ....There will be some who do, no doubt..
.
.
.

God did almost nothing to keep His happy Children of the Garden from acquiring it.

8/10 ....Which is a way of saying that he did do something.
.
.
.

All He had to do was not provide the option of eating from the tree by not providing the tree.

6/10 ....True, but I've marked you down for not carrying on the the obvious conclusion (no option = no choice = no way to exercise any free will
.
.
.

You think God didn't know what was going to happen when He put the tree and man together?

10/10 ...Spoken like a Christian!
.
.
.

Besides, it was free will that allowed man to "sin" and eat from the tree.

10/10 ...Masterful!
.
.
.

Adam and Eve just didn't know it was wrong to do so until after they ate.

10/10 ...right on the money - they were consequential creatures only. Not moral creatures

Average score = 8.5.

Well done AQ

:)

Edited by iano, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by LinearAq, posted 02-20-2008 10:38 AM LinearAq has not yet responded

  
Greatest I am
Member (Idle past 663 days)
Posts: 1423
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 6 of 14 (456839)
02-20-2008 11:21 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by iano
02-20-2008 9:46 AM


So God wanted man to have conscience. Why then does scripture show God punishing man for reaching for it?

If this is not our best asset then what is?

Regards
DL


This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by iano, posted 02-20-2008 9:46 AM iano has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by iano, posted 02-20-2008 11:40 AM Greatest I am has responded

    
Greatest I am
Member (Idle past 663 days)
Posts: 1423
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 7 of 14 (456840)
02-20-2008 11:29 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by LinearAq
02-20-2008 10:38 AM


You wrote
"Don't you already do that?
Example: Do you pray?
Does praying change what God has intended to do?
God says you should pray, or ask for His assistance. Do you know why or do you just do it?"

I know good and evil. I follow God’s philosophy as I understand it.

I seldom pray.

Yes prayer can change things because the future is not set. God, like us, evolves.

People do not pray without a reason. Praying is asking for something.

Regards
DL

Edited by Greatest I am, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by LinearAq, posted 02-20-2008 10:38 AM LinearAq has not yet responded

    
iano
Member (Idle past 224 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 8 of 14 (456847)
02-20-2008 11:40 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by Greatest I am
02-20-2008 11:21 AM


Conscience: the double edged sword
gia writes:

So God wanted man to have conscience.

No. God wanted Adam to have a choice. I don't think even God could provide a choice which couldn't be chosen - irrespective of what God would want Adam to have done

Why then does scripture show God punishing man for reaching for it?

God promised death for disobedience. God keeps his promises.

If this is not our best asset then what is?

Our best/worst asset. It's a tool of God applied to each and every man that will result in each and every man being saved or condemned.

It's a double edged sword.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by Greatest I am, posted 02-20-2008 11:21 AM Greatest I am has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by Greatest I am, posted 02-20-2008 12:14 PM iano has responded

  
Greatest I am
Member (Idle past 663 days)
Posts: 1423
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 9 of 14 (456856)
02-20-2008 12:14 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by iano
02-20-2008 11:40 AM


Re: Conscience: the double edged sword
And you said that was conciounce which you said God wanted us to have.

Are you on a mery go round or is logic just beyond you?

Regards
DL


This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by iano, posted 02-20-2008 11:40 AM iano has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by iano, posted 02-20-2008 7:42 PM Greatest I am has not yet responded

    
iano
Member (Idle past 224 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 10 of 14 (456939)
02-20-2008 7:42 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by Greatest I am
02-20-2008 12:14 PM


Re: Conscience: the double edged sword
gia writes:

And you said that was conciounce which you said God wanted us to have.

And I said what was conscience?

I didn't say God wanted us to have conscience. At least I don't remember saying such a thing

Are you on a mery go round or is logic just beyond you?

Neither.

Edited by iano, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by Greatest I am, posted 02-20-2008 12:14 PM Greatest I am has not yet responded

  
Hill Billy
Member (Idle past 3637 days)
Posts: 163
From: The hills
Joined: 01-26-2008


Message 11 of 14 (457348)
02-22-2008 7:36 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Greatest I am
02-19-2008 10:08 AM


Moral compass?
When I read this my first thought was " huh? "

Moral sense comes from the knowledge of good and evil.

Are you speaking of moral understanding, as in what you have learned is moral/ immoral, or are you speaking of a sense of morality, as in what you feel may be moral/ immoral?

Seems to me the bible spells out what is moral/ immoral. This would seem to eliminate any need for a " sense " of morality that was derived from the knowledge of good and evil.

I don't argue that people may have some sort of internal morality measuring device but I don't believe it's so cut and dried that I would claim to know where it comes from.

did what he could in his clumsy way to keep his happy Children of the Garden from acquiring it.

You don't seem to have much respect for the God you claim to follow.


The years tell what the days never knew.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Greatest I am, posted 02-19-2008 10:08 AM Greatest I am has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by Greatest I am, posted 02-23-2008 8:46 AM Hill Billy has responded

  
Greatest I am
Member (Idle past 663 days)
Posts: 1423
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 12 of 14 (457406)
02-23-2008 8:46 AM
Reply to: Message 11 by Hill Billy
02-22-2008 7:36 PM


Re: Moral compass?
There was no Bible in the time of Adam and Eve.

The God that most see in the Bible does not deserve man's respect.

He kills us too often. If we saw a father resorting to violence to correct his children all the time we would say that he is not too bright and too lazy to use his head.
We see God doing the same and we adore him for it. rather stupid of so many.

Moral sense comes from the knowledge of good and evil. Would you give it up?

Regards
DL


This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by Hill Billy, posted 02-22-2008 7:36 PM Hill Billy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by Hill Billy, posted 02-23-2008 1:28 PM Greatest I am has responded

    
Hill Billy
Member (Idle past 3637 days)
Posts: 163
From: The hills
Joined: 01-26-2008


Message 13 of 14 (457428)
02-23-2008 1:28 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by Greatest I am
02-23-2008 8:46 AM


Greatest ? I think you're not.
You say:

There was no Bible in the time of Adam and Eve.
I say thats likely true, however if you read the book it says God WAS there. God was there to speak directly to Adam and Eve. No need for a book.

The God that most see in the Bible does not deserve man's respect.

How do you know what "most" see in the bible or anywhere else?

He kills us too often. If we saw a father resorting to violence to correct his children all the time we would say that he is not too bright and too lazy to use his head.
We see God doing the same and we adore him for it. rather stupid of so many.
So, if it's so stupid, why do you claim follow him?

Moral sense comes from the knowledge of good and evil.

You just ignore my question? Thats fine. I disagree. A moral "sense" does NOT come from the knowledge of good and evil. That would be a moral "understanding".

So, again, why would you follow a God that you feel does NOT deserve to be followed? I seriously do not understand. It seems as if you are merely pretending to follow God and that seems kinda odd to me.

Do you have some other agenda?


The years tell what the days never knew.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by Greatest I am, posted 02-23-2008 8:46 AM Greatest I am has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by Greatest I am, posted 02-23-2008 2:01 PM Hill Billy has not yet responded

  
Greatest I am
Member (Idle past 663 days)
Posts: 1423
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 14 of 14 (457439)
02-23-2008 2:01 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by Hill Billy
02-23-2008 1:28 PM


Re: Greatest ? I think you're not.
You may be reading a bit too quickly.

Many follow the God of the Bible while still believing that He sent a genocidal flood. I do not follow this God. My God comes out of the same book but does not need to resort to killing people.

A good law maker will not break His own laws.

I believe God to be perfect and to do perfect works.

Deuteronomy 32:4
He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he

I do not read the Bible literally bit this quote is a logical extention of what a God would be and do.

God may have been in the garden but if He were to teach Adam and Eve good and evil then the tree of knowledge would not be needed. So to say that God taught them this information would be wrong.

If the already knew it then whey cast them out for eating what they already knew. Illogical.

Regards
DL


This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by Hill Billy, posted 02-23-2008 1:28 PM Hill Billy has not yet responded

    
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