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Author Topic:   Why try to disprove people's beliefs?
Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 5 of 72 (457483)
02-23-2008 6:24 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by ChristianJuggalo
02-23-2008 6:03 PM


Why do some atheists try to disprove God?
Why do some Christians try to prove God?
Well, the most obvious answer (not necessarily the correct one) is that these people sincerely believe what they do, and that they are merely informing other people of the truth. The truth is often its own justification for advocacy.

If I had a million dollars, I'd buy you a monkey.
Haven't you always wanted a monkey?
-- The Barenaked Ladies

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by ChristianJuggalo, posted 02-23-2008 6:03 PM ChristianJuggalo has not replied

  
Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 9 of 72 (457496)
02-23-2008 7:39 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by Jaderis
02-23-2008 7:32 PM


...[Proving the existence or non-existence of God] has historically been quite impossible to do....
Actually, it is quite possible, even easy to do. All one has to do is start with the right set of premises, and the desired conclusion follows. As I try to tell people (like rulerofthisuniverse), it's not that the proofs are necessarily invalid logically -- we can't tell whether or not they are sound because we can never really determine whether the premises are true or not -- especially in topics that seem to promote word salad like the existence or non-existence of God.
But maybe this is what you meant.
Now, if people want to talk about demonstrating the existence or non-existence of God in a evidence-based scientific (or at least in a science-like) manner, that is different. In my opinion, the non-existence of the Biblical/Toranic/Qur'anic God is amply demonstrated. But that's just my opinion.

If I had a million dollars, I'd buy you a monkey.
Haven't you always wanted a monkey?
-- The Barenaked Ladies

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by Jaderis, posted 02-23-2008 7:32 PM Jaderis has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by Jaderis, posted 02-23-2008 8:59 PM Chiroptera has not replied

  
Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 10 of 72 (457497)
02-23-2008 7:40 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by CK
02-23-2008 7:34 PM


And you're lucky that you have the US as an example of of the very things you fear to show to your fellow citizens.

If I had a million dollars, I'd buy you a monkey.
Haven't you always wanted a monkey?
-- The Barenaked Ladies

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by CK, posted 02-23-2008 7:34 PM CK has not replied

  
Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 13 of 72 (457500)
02-23-2008 8:03 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by Taz
02-23-2008 8:00 PM


Church of England. The official state church of the lower portion of Great Britain.

If I had a million dollars, I'd buy you a monkey.
Haven't you always wanted a monkey?
-- The Barenaked Ladies

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by Taz, posted 02-23-2008 8:00 PM Taz has not replied

  
Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 39 of 72 (457780)
02-25-2008 2:11 PM


Did ChristianJuggalo leave? Did he take the topic with him?
Yeah, well, all this dippy hippy New Age postmodern "Is reality real? Is experience...ooh, look at the pretty butterflies!" philosophizing is all very interesting and all, but the OP started off pretty interesting, namely the question "why do people want to change other people's beliefs". I wonder whether ChistianJuggalo would be interested in bringing back on topic?

If I had a million dollars, I'd buy you a monkey.
Haven't you always wanted a monkey?
-- The Barenaked Ladies

  
Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 43 of 72 (460788)
03-18-2008 9:50 PM


A reply to ChristianJuggalo's new PNT.
ChristianJuggalo is having a tough time getting a new PNT approved:
If atheists don't believe in what the Bible says, why don't they just leave it alone and worry about themselves?
Since Adminnemooseus pointed him here, I'll answer the query here. Maybe he or Percy can even add a note that this response exists.
-
To begin, I don't know what you're talking about atheists not leaving anyone alone. The whole history of Europe is about European Christians very violently not leaving anyone else alone. They were very violent against the pagans, whom they wouldn't leave alone, they wouldn't leave the Muslims alone, and they wouldn't even leave other Christians alone. The Founding Fathers of the U.S. found the totalitarian intrusiveness of the European Christians so abhorrent that they deliberately made the government of the U.S. (and of most of the states) explicitly secular.
And that still isn't enough for contemporary Christians. It's Christians (at least a virulently vocal sect of Christians) that wants to inject religious fable into science classrooms, and who wants to display religious iconography in government courthouses, and who wants the secular state to enforce religious moral tenets.
Good grief! Atheists would like to leave other people alone, but it's the fanatical religious lunatics who won't just "worrying about themselves."
Secondly, atheists do leave the Bible alone. They only time atheists mention the Bible is as a response to when the American Taliban starts off with, "Well, the Bible says that...." And the points that the atheists bring up were actually brought up by Christians! It was Christian geologists who first discovered that the first two chapters of Genesis could not possibly be an accurate description of the history of the world. It was Jewish Zionist archaeologists who first realized that the Exodus was not an actual historical event. And it was Protestant Christians, in analyzing the Bible to remove "pagan" Catholic doctrine, who realized that the Pentateuch was written by at least 4 different people, who realized that there were historical problems with the description of the nativity, who realized that the Christian doctrine developed over a long period of time after the death of Jesus, not as the Gospels related.
I'm not sure where you get your facts. Atheists, except for a very few who appreciate classical literature, don't really care at all about the Bible, and really don't care what Christians do. The only reason they do concern themselves with such things is out of basic survival, because it's the Christians who won't leave other people alone.
Edited by Chiroptera, : typos -- lots of 'em

Rats and roaches live by competition under the laws of supply and demand; it is the privilege of human beings to live under the laws of justice and mercy. -- Wendell Berry

Replies to this message:
 Message 44 by dwise1, posted 03-19-2008 3:19 AM Chiroptera has not replied

  
Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 55 of 72 (460838)
03-19-2008 12:18 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by ChristianJuggalo
03-19-2008 9:39 AM


Re: Current times people.
I'm tired of certain atheists such as Richard Dawkins talking shit about the Bible and trying to disprove it.
Then don't read Richard Dawkins. I don't watch Pat Robertson on TV (well, except on comedy night, of course). Pat Robertson being on TV and being invited to talk before certain groups does not count as "bothering me." Richard Dawkins writing books and being invited to talk before certain groups does not count as "bothering you."
You see? This is the problem that your sect of Christianity has. The mere existence of Richard Dawkins and the temerity that he has to express his opinions counts in your mind as "not leaving you alone." And it is your sect of Christianity that counts us atheists' attempts to be left alone as persecuting you.
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I also hate the fact that atheists are trying to force evolution down childrens throats.
You see, this is the problem with your sect of Christianity. This is exactly what I was talking about in my initial response. Like it or not, the theory of evolution is the major unifying theory for biology; it makes no sense and does kids a great disservice to try to teach biology without evolution. And the theory of evolution has more evidencial support for it than any other scientific theory -- it makes no sense on a scientific sense to exclude it from the science curriculum. There is no reason not to teach it in schools except that it is offensive to a certain Christian sect. This is what I mean when it is Christians who try to force religious fables in our science classes.
On the other hand, young earth creationism was disproven long, long ago. There is no evidence in favor of it, and Christians figured out that all the geologic evidence was against it over 200 years ago. There is no reason to accept it unless it is a central tenet in one's religious system. This is what I meant in my response to your post; it is the Christians who are trying to force religious dogma into our secular public schools.
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Also, I have seen people get laughed at or made fun of in my school for questioning evolution.
Oh god! Like no other kid gets laughed at for some reason or another. Most of us learn to grow a pair of balls. For some reason it's just the Christians who should go through life pairless!
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Also, I have never said that I have been persecuted or attacked you moron. Also, I don't care to impose my Christian beliefs on anyone. Also, I don't care if a store says season greetings, happy holidays. I could give a fuck less. Quit assuming shit.
No one ever said that you did shit. All I ever said was that your claims are full of shit.
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I don't judge atheists as a whole.
No. You're just claiming that some unidentified atheists are pissing in your beer. I'm pointing out that this isn't true, or if there are atheists who can't leave people alone, there is much, much smaller number of them than Christians who can't leave people alone, and that what you identify as atheist bad behavior are simply atheists (and Jews and Christians) who are trying to put up barriers against Christians who can't leave anyone else alone.

Rats and roaches live by competition under the laws of supply and demand; it is the privilege of human beings to live under the laws of justice and mercy. -- Wendell Berry

This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by ChristianJuggalo, posted 03-19-2008 9:39 AM ChristianJuggalo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 57 by ChristianJuggalo, posted 03-19-2008 12:39 PM Chiroptera has replied

  
Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 59 of 72 (460851)
03-19-2008 12:54 PM
Reply to: Message 57 by ChristianJuggalo
03-19-2008 12:39 PM


Re: Current times people.
I just meant I don't like the fact that he has to be sarcastic when he talks about Christianity...
What? You mean this whole thread is just about how you don't like the way in which Dawkins expresses his opinions? Good grief!
-
...(not that it bothers me)...
Now you just contradicted yourself. You can't say you don't like something and then say that it doesn't bother you...those are contradictory statements.
-
How are my claims full of shit? By the way, what claims?
I don't know any more. I thought that you were making the claim that atheists "don't worry just about themselves" and bother other people which would be a legitimate complaint if inaccurate. Now you say that you just don't like the way Dawkins says stuff to the people who go out of their way to read and listen to him, which seems down right silly to me.
If your complaint really is that people should be more polite when they point out how silly certain superstitions are, then I guess I'm not all that interested in this conversation.
Added by edit:
I just noticed that you've been suspended a day for uncivil discourse. Now when you come back you may claim that you were responding to my uncivil post. Maybe not, but if you do, I suggest that you don't respond directly to the Admin's post -- that will get you suspended again. Instead, report my post here.
Edited by Chiroptera, : typo
Edited by Chiroptera, : No reason given.

Rats and roaches live by competition under the laws of supply and demand; it is the privilege of human beings to live under the laws of justice and mercy. -- Wendell Berry

This message is a reply to:
 Message 57 by ChristianJuggalo, posted 03-19-2008 12:39 PM ChristianJuggalo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 60 by ChristianJuggalo, posted 03-20-2008 1:10 PM Chiroptera has replied

  
Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 62 of 72 (460926)
03-20-2008 1:31 PM
Reply to: Message 60 by ChristianJuggalo
03-20-2008 1:10 PM


Re: Current times people.
I'll just reply to the one point that is on topic.
If you find Dawkins' comments offensive, I think you'd be better off if you don't read them and don't watch him.

Rats and roaches live by competition under the laws of supply and demand; it is the privilege of human beings to live under the laws of justice and mercy. -- Wendell Berry

This message is a reply to:
 Message 60 by ChristianJuggalo, posted 03-20-2008 1:10 PM ChristianJuggalo has not replied

  
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