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Author Topic:   abiotic oil theory
randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 2977 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 1 of 15 (453377)
02-02-2008 1:36 AM


Noticed an article today that stated there is a serious published study suggesting oil is not a fossil fuel.

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=59991

I was going to put this into Coffee house, but maybe it is more a science topic.


Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by Adminnemooseus, posted 02-02-2008 2:59 AM randman has responded

  
Adminnemooseus
Director
Posts: 3879
Joined: 09-26-2002


Message 2 of 15 (453386)
02-02-2008 2:59 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by randman
02-02-2008 1:36 AM


Sometimes used as a "Young Earth" argument
Somewhere in the past I seem to recall that you're an "age-agnostic" creationist. Anyway, in the past I've seen the abiotic origin of petroleum used as some sort of young Earth argument.

How about some additional reference, besides worldnetdaily.com. That source reminds me too much of the recently dearly departed Weekly World News. An article of dubious accuracy and writing quality. Maybe you could track down some on-line version of Science Magazine, which BTW, I believe is something other than the most prestigious Science journal (but I may be wrong).

Also, how about a little quoted content and/or commentary from you. Your message 1 is close to being a bare link.

Placement of this topic is somewhat problematic. As noted, it has before been part of the evo/creo debate.

Please post any new material as a new message.

In general, take it easy on the new topics. You've had quite a few since your comeback.

Adminnemooseus


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by randman, posted 02-02-2008 1:36 AM randman has responded

Replies to this message:
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randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 2977 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 3 of 15 (453402)
02-02-2008 4:20 AM
Reply to: Message 2 by Adminnemooseus
02-02-2008 2:59 AM


Re: Sometimes used as a "Young Earth" argument
I am not taking a specific stand. I do admit since I was a young child, I thought for some reason the story of oil formation struck me as somehow incorrect. I was raised in a more secular perspective by the way.....so it wasn't a thought from religion, and so I am probably more open to exploring whether I had a correct intuition.

Tangenitally as evidence on how perhaps something related to evo theory could mislead science, this could have merit, but honestly, I am not thinking in terms of the evo debate on this one.

I can't provide in-depth material either. I was hoping by posting this someone else could.

Can't we post this as a topic for discussion somewhere so someone that may know about this theory and the evidence can comment?

Edited by randman, : No reason given.


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randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 2977 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 4 of 15 (453405)
02-02-2008 4:24 AM
Reply to: Message 2 by Adminnemooseus
02-02-2008 2:59 AM


Re: Sometimes used as a "Young Earth" argument
In general, take it easy on the new topics. You've had quite a few since your comeback.

I'll take your advice and cool out after tonight some, but I was away for awhile and not debating this quite as much.....sort of built up some ideas in that time.


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Adminnemooseus
Director
Posts: 3879
Joined: 09-26-2002


Message 5 of 15 (453413)
02-02-2008 5:10 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by randman
02-02-2008 4:20 AM


Abiotic oil info resources
I Googled "abiotic oil" and "abiotic oil" + "Science Magazine" and got lots.

It included:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abiogenic_petroleum_origin

and perhaps more significantly:

Unambiguously Ambidextrous: Oil Is Not A Fossil Fuel?

which led to:

Abiogenic Origin of Hydrocarbons: An Historical Overview
RESOURCE GEOLOGY, vol. 56, no. 1, 85–98, 2006
http://static.scribd.com/docs/j79lhbgbjbqrb.pdf

This PDF seems to be a pretty heavy discussion of the matter.

I just don't have a good feeling about promoting this topic.

Adminnemooseus

ps - A comment at the 2nd cite above, which included the PDF reference, also had the following information about your WorldNetDaily author:

quote:
BTW, Corsi is a PhD in PoliSci and the co-author of the anti-Kerry polemic "Unfit for Command". I daresay his motivations here are a bit suspect.

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Admin
Director
Posts: 12579
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 6 of 15 (453475)
02-02-2008 10:08 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by Adminnemooseus
02-02-2008 5:10 AM


Re: Abiotic oil info resources
I've followed this issue, albeit very casually and not in depth, for a while, and find it pretty interesting. It doesn't bear directly on the creation/evolution debate as proposed, so we could put it in Coffee House, and if the discussion takes a turn that touches more directly on creation/evolution issues we could move it to a science forum. Just my opinion, I leave the promotion decision to you.


--Percy
EvC Forum Director

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Admin
Director
Posts: 12579
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 7 of 15 (457285)
02-22-2008 8:20 AM


Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.
    
randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 2977 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 8 of 15 (457464)
02-23-2008 3:49 PM


Hydrocarbons
Didn't it just come out in the news that there were a ton of hydrocarbons on Saturn or something like that?

How could hydrocarbons be organic if they exist on other planets that don't seem to have life?


Replies to this message:
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Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 9 of 15 (457467)
02-23-2008 4:32 PM


Solubility Factor
Just a thought:

Alcohol, terpentine and vegetable oils etc are not soluable to paint thinner, mineral oil, gasoline, machine oil and other mineral products. Is there anything here pro or con relative to the hypothesis?


  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 10 of 15 (457468)
02-23-2008 4:37 PM


Bedrock & Mineral Oils
Another question:

My understanding is that most (abe: crude) oil must be extracted from in or below the bedrock. Is this in any way supportive to the hypothesis?

Edited by Buzsaw, : Improve wording


BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.
Replies to this message:
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anglagard
Member
Posts: 2185
From: Socorro, New Mexico USA
Joined: 03-18-2006


Message 11 of 15 (457512)
02-23-2008 8:59 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by randman
02-23-2008 3:49 PM


Re: Hydrocarbons
randman writes:

Didn't it just come out in the news that there were a ton of hydrocarbons on Saturn or something like that?

Try Saturn's largest moon Titan.

How could hydrocarbons be organic if they exist on other planets that don't seem to have life?

They are called organic because hydrocarbons consist of hydrogen and carbon. Organic chemistry is the study of the compounds of hydrogen, carbon, nitrogen, and oxygen. The term organic in this case does not mean the living, but rather the four most common elements in the living.


Read not to contradict and confute, not to believe and take for granted, not to find talk and discourse, but to weigh and consider - Francis Bacon

The more we understand particular things, the more we understand God - Spinoza


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anglagard
Member
Posts: 2185
From: Socorro, New Mexico USA
Joined: 03-18-2006


Message 12 of 15 (457515)
02-23-2008 9:07 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by Buzsaw
02-23-2008 4:37 PM


Re: Bedrock & Mineral Oils
Buzsaw writes:

My understanding is that most (abe: crude) oil must be extracted from in or below the bedrock. Is this in any way supportive to the hypothesis?

Please define the term bedrock. Oil and natural gas deposits so far as known have virtually all come from sedimentary, rather than igneous or metamorphic rock. The mantle underneath the crust is metamorphic.

The abiotic theory means that at least some oil and gas is caused by outgassing from the mantle due to chemical reactions rather than from the decay of organic material. So far as I know, evidence for the concept is still being gathered and examined and no final verdict has been reached.


Read not to contradict and confute, not to believe and take for granted, not to find talk and discourse, but to weigh and consider - Francis Bacon

The more we understand particular things, the more we understand God - Spinoza


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bluescat48
Member (Idle past 2267 days)
Posts: 2347
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2007


Message 13 of 15 (457528)
02-23-2008 10:13 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by anglagard
02-23-2008 8:59 PM


Re: Hydrocarbons
They are called organic because hydrocarbons consist of hydrogen and carbon. Organic chemistry is the study of the compounds of hydrogen, carbon, nitrogen, and oxygen. The term organic in this case does not mean the living, but rather the four most common elements in the living.

Originally it was thought that organic chemicals could only be made by living beings until Wöhler changed Ammonium cyanate into Urea. Although still called organic it is now known that they can be made by inorganic means just as any other subtance including organic substances that do nor exist naturally like polyvinyl chloride.


There is no better love between 2 people than mutual respect for each other
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Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 14 of 15 (457589)
02-24-2008 9:39 AM
Reply to: Message 12 by anglagard
02-23-2008 9:07 PM


Re: Bedrock & Mineral Oils
anglagard writes:

Please define the term bedrock. Oil and natural gas deposits so far as known have virtually all come from sedimentary, rather than igneous or metamorphic rock. The mantle underneath the crust is metamorphic.

The abiotic theory means that at least some oil and gas is caused by outgassing from the mantle due to chemical reactions rather than from the decay of organic material. So far as I know, evidence for the concept is still being gathered and examined and no final verdict has been reached.

According to Merriam Webster bedrock is "the solid rock underlying unconsolidated surface materials."

To delve into why may be off topic but imo, whether sedimentary, igneous or metamorphic the hypothesis appears to do nothing to support either side of the old earth EvC issues which includes my own hypothesis, (abe: not being) YEC.

Edited by Buzsaw, : gramatical correction


BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by anglagard, posted 02-23-2008 9:07 PM anglagard has not yet responded

  
obvious Child
Member (Idle past 2193 days)
Posts: 661
Joined: 08-17-2006


Message 15 of 15 (457645)
02-24-2008 4:52 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by randman
02-23-2008 3:49 PM


Re: Hydrocarbons
Aren't you making the false assumption that they can't come about through both processes?

We know that methane arises from the decomposition of organic matter. Several cities use capture plants located in their landfills as part of their power resources.


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